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Kristin, I think if it wasn't for you, Sun, and Voltek we vapers would all be in trouble. I for one thank all of you for your constant attention to this situation. I know I probably missed many others who deseve the same thanks.
Kristin, I think if it wasn't for you, Sun, and Voltek we vapers would all be in trouble. I for one thank all of you for your constant attention to this situation. I know I probably missed many others who deseve the same thanks.
Kristin--Agreed. As you say, to dismiss all of the hardworking advocates is really not right IMO..Originally Posted by kristin
I was going to stay out of this thread, but I need to defend all of the hardworking advocates you just dismissed.
One heated discussion on one forum thread and it means there is infighting and no cooperation and no leadership?
Pretty broad and misguided accusation!
CASAA, Vapers International, National Vapers Club and Right to Vape HAVE been working together.
Who do you think is spearheading all of the letter writing campaigns? Who is watching the states for legislation and posting the call to actions on forums? Who is encouraging people to write their legislators? Who is writing those form letters and posting them for people to use, so they'll actually DO it? Who is writing pro ecig articles and press releases? Who is creating the informative websites? Who is organizing representatives for each state? who is creating legislative packets to distribute to legislators in states trying to ban ecigs? Who wrote a whitepaper about the pros of ecigs to counter the anti ecig whitepaper? Who travels to other states and meets legislators, when the vapers in their own state fail to appear and fight for their own rights? Who is meeting face-to-face with anti-tobacco groups to try to show them the error of their anti-ecig stance? Who is holding fundraising events, writing an ecig research study and approaching IRBs for approval to show ecigs are safe? Who meets weekly by internet conference and spends a few hours away from their families, dividing the work to be done (writing those articles and letters, contacting members, posting updates) and formulating a game plan to protect ecigs?
Do you think all of that is getting done by itself and with a lack of cooperation or leadership?
No, ALL of that was/is done by the cooperating ecig organizations that are NOT wasting time on "arguing moot points and frivolity." This one discussion, in one thread on an ecig forum, is certainly NOT indicitive of all the hard work and cooperation that has occurred (and IS occurring) and to say that is a slap in the face of all of the unpaid, hardworking volunteers, who dedicate hours of their time and donate their own money out-of-poacket, to inform and protect the rights of people, the majority of whom sit on their butts and complain that "nothing" is getting done.
If all I listed above isn't "taking the flag and rallying the troops," I don't know what is.
But if the troops fail to show up, what can we do?
We ARE working together and we constantly call for support and usually get a lackadaisical response. The members of these organizations are working hard to get things done. Just because you see me fly off the handle ONCE in one forum thread doesn't change that.
Maybe contact the Vapers Coalition or one of these groups and get your facts straight about what they are doing, before making unfounded accusations of a lack of leadership, infighting and frivolity.
And no, this post isn't to "get credit" for "saving ecigs." This isn't about ego.It's to counter this ridiculous claim that these hard-working advocacy volunteers are accomplishing nothing and wasting time bickering. People need to be informed of all that these advocates ARE accomplishing and attempting to do, so they don't judge them based on this one thread.
There are many debates and that is called democracy. It is how things actually get done and solutions are arrived at.
That is part of any Forums function. So the work continues and that is what is important. There will always be debates, but for the very reason we take the time to debate, IMO, means we are all on the same page.
Sun
Last edited by Sun Vaporer; 04-11-2010 at 10:05 PM.
Thanks, 5card, but honestly - while it's appreciated, these advocates don't want thanks - they want and need HELP. We need people to act!
Two members of the Vapers Coalition are driving to Illinois, from Missouri, next week to meet with the Illinois board and argue for ecigs to remain legal for adults. We've called for Illinois vapers to meet them there and not one person has stepped forward to attend. We need constituents to be there, not just two Missouri folks.
We just can't do this alone.
Sun, I do apologize for snapping at you. You know I like and appreciate you. We've always gotten along fine before.
The irony of all of this is that I agree with you completely that ecigs need their own classification!
My issue was never with you. After your disclosure about the supplier group, my issue was feeling like the ecig advocacy organizations were all supporting the wrong team by being left in the dark and I wish we had known, so we could have supported these other suppliers.
We still can! If they want us to change our stance or start advocating a different classification, we would definitely be willing to do that. We just need to know what we are supporting and feasibility of it.
I don't want to keep fighting for tobacco classification if there is a real chance at circumventing that and getting a better classification!
Last edited by kristin; 04-11-2010 at 10:10 PM.
Same here Kristin, and I have always enjoyed you and the many many contributions that you have made in this fight. Some people just do not understand the effort and time that is put in and readily dismiss the efforts made.
What they do not think about is how much further we could get if we could just get more people to step up. Like you say, we need people to act and become constituents.
People should join CASSA and other groups and ask what they can do and state what they can bring to the table. Time and effort is just as important as monetary contributions.
As for this group of Suppliers, when they ask for help with Public Relations after they file, I am sure we will be able to supply it--but we need help people.
Many people do not realize how much damage groups like ASH can do with Cases like this and I do hope more respond to Kristin's call to action.
Kristin has this request posted on every forum and still the response has been very light compared to what it could be. Kristin is not asking a lot and IMO, more need to at least consider stepping up. Whatever you can do is better then doing nothing!!!
Sun
Amen to the most recent posts by Kristin and Sun. New Jersey had one of these meetings and not a single vaper showed up. I don't know if most people believe that someone else will show in their place or what, but if these states lose their right to vape it will fall directly on the shoulders of the vapers themselves. Personally, if it was my state, I would be driving however far I had to so that my voice was heard and could at least say I tried.
"Nicotine is not smoking." Chis Heeschen, Researcher, Stanford University
"Vapor is not smoke." Battle cry of Vocalek, original quoter undetermined
Just to clarify this a bit - members of the National Vaper's Club DID show up to the New Jersey meetings, though. Spikey is very active in New Jersey. I don't know about any other New Jersey vapers, though. You are probably right.
Thanks for the clarification and my apologies for any misinformation. I read a report on what I believe was the final meeting that stated something to the effect of 5 for the ban and 0 against, but I honestly couldn't tell you where I got it from and should really check my sources better.
Oh, and for all the NJ constituents, not only does the smoking/vaping ban keep you from inhaling e-cig vapor in public places, you are not allowed to inhale any vapor, so I'm afraid breathing is completely out due to the water vapor content in the air.
"Nicotine is not smoking." Chis Heeschen, Researcher, Stanford University
"Vapor is not smoke." Battle cry of Vocalek, original quoter undetermined
Not to mention the immense clout the FDA carries by default to any court dispute. Vincent Kleinfeld, a D.C. attorney who worked on drug approval affairs, said: "the courts in this area of the law tend to equate the Food and Drug Administration with God, motherhood, and country." He wrote about what happens in court when someone challenges the FDA for such issues:
If the Food and Drug Administration yells "hazard" or "danger" you are not going to get one judge out of a hundred to hold against the Food and Drug Administration; this I can testify to from very bitter experience since I have been in private practice and with the government. When you are before a judge, it makes practically no difference whether the government is right or wrong. The government attorney looks up gravely at the judge and says, "Your Honor, the Food and Drug Administration . . ." — there is a pause right there — "takes the position that this product is dangerous; it may cause death either directly or because it keeps the patient away from the knife, the X-ray machine, radium. If Your Honor wishes to take the grave responsibility of substituting your judgment for that of the Food and Drug Administration . . ." — another pause. That is it.This, of course, also gives a deeper perspective to Judge Leon’s decision.
Kristin, Sun and anyone else who took offense or thinks i'm trying to "dismiss" them, let me assure you that was not my intention. And I apologize here publicly if you thought that I was.I was going to stay out of this thread, but I need to defend all of the hardworking advocates you just dismissed.
One heated discussion on one forum thread and it means there is infighting and no cooperation and no leadership?
Pretty broad and misguided accusation!
CASAA, Vapers International, National Vapers Club and Right to Vape HAVE been working together.
Who do you think is spearheading all of the letter writing campaigns? Who is watching the states for legislation and posting the call to actions on forums? Who is encouraging people to write their legislators? Who is writing those form letters and posting them for people to use, so they'll actually DO it? Who is writing pro ecig articles and press releases? Who is creating the informative websites? Who is organizing representatives for each state? who is creating legislative packets to distribute to legislators in states trying to ban ecigs? Who wrote a whitepaper about the pros of ecigs to counter the anti ecig whitepaper? Who travels to other states and meets legislators, when the vapers in their own state fail to appear and fight for their own rights? Who is meeting face-to-face with anti-tobacco groups to try to show them the error of their anti-ecig stance? Who is holding fundraising events, writing an ecig research study and approaching IRBs for approval to show ecigs are safe? Who meets weekly by internet conference and spends a few hours away from their families, dividing the work to be done (writing those articles and letters, contacting members, posting updates) and formulating a game plan to protect ecigs?
Do you think all of that is getting done by itself and with a lack of cooperation or leadership?
No, ALL of that was/is done by the cooperating ecig organizations that are NOT wasting time on "arguing moot points and frivolity." This one discussion, in one thread on an ecig forum, is certainly NOT indicitive of all the hard work and cooperation that has occurred (and IS occurring) and to say that is a slap in the face of all of the unpaid, hardworking volunteers, who dedicate hours of their time and donate their own money out-of-poacket, to inform and protect the rights of people, the majority of whom sit on their butts and complain that "nothing" is getting done.
If all I listed above isn't "taking the flag and rallying the troops," I don't know what is.
But if the troops fail to show up, what can we do?
We ARE working together and we constantly call for support and usually get a lackadaisical response. The members of these organizations are working hard to get things done. Just because you see me fly off the handle ONCE in one forum thread doesn't change that.
Maybe contact the Vapers Coalition or one of these groups and get your facts straight about what they are doing, before making unfounded accusations of a lack of leadership, infighting and frivolity.
And no, this post isn't to "get credit" for "saving ecigs." This isn't about ego.
All of the people telling us to put away the rulers, quit posturing, need to work toghether, etc. need to get a clue. That is NOT what is happening IRL and you are WAY off base.
But Kristin, it's not just one discussion in one forum and you know it. While I will say over the last three months all the groups have really been coming together and making great strides with a lot of hard work, my point was, and is... there is still more to be done. And we have to do better.
And to be honest, i don't blame you for flying off the handle. I would have too. You got blindsided, as you have been many times in the past. It's a shame. And it shouldn't happen. I don't ever want you to feel that you are not appreciated, or anyone who has worked so hard.
WE love you and WE need you.
But you are right, another one of my points was that the troops are not showing up as you said. The response is "lackadaisical" at best. This is truly a shame and in the end will destroy us.
As for "contact the Vapers Coalition or one of these groups and get your facts straight" I have. Many times. I watch the updates, i watched the websites being built that are still under construction. I was one of the first to join CASAA I believe. I'd like to be more involved with the other groups as well. But it's difficult. The forums are confusing, the info hard to find, the form letters do not work for me.
You know, some of us just don't have time to check five different forums in various states of completeness to find out what the latest news and actions needed are.
So, I write my own. I've contacted everyone, I've participated in every letter writing campaign. Just because I didn't come in here and yell "Hey, I did it" doesn't mean I didn't. You have a lot of support from people you don't even know about. Which is great!!
Ane who is writing all the stuff? who is getting the word out and encouraging people to write in. Lots of us. But we need more.
The ultimate point is that you need help. Everyone needs help. Organization is the key, and yes, I have to agree, you do FAR MORE than your FAIR SHARE.
That is why I offered my help. As I've done many times in the past. As many others have done in recent days right here in this very forum. But was the help welcomed? No, we are told we are discounting the efforts being done and asked to consider who is doing all the work.
I have my strong opinions about what needs to be done. And I have lot's of ideas and experience on how to do it. And I know some resources you all really need to get ahold of. I've been involved in politics for 40 years, it's one of the reason i have to be ecig guy and not the real me around here. My position on ecigs would not be very popular with some people.
But Let me help you. I beg you.
Like for example: Would you like to have a sidebar widget that you guys can put on all the websites so that people can put in their zip codes and find their local, state and national representatives and their contact info instantly? I can make that happen. In just a few hours. Just let me know where to send the script and it will be done.
I'm here. Put me to work. I may come off a bit strong and for that I'm very sorry. If I was not as passionate about this fight I probably wouldn't. But I am. So forgive me if I seem a bit strong in my opinions. I'm not trying to discount the work that's been done or the people that are doing it. I'm saying very clearly:
There is more to be done and we all need to pitch in. You shouldn't even be doing half what you have to do. You should be leading, we should be doing more of the grunt work that is distracting all our leaders.
Why not just say "Hey Reg, glad to have your help man, thanks for the well thought out opinions looks like you helped raised $20 bucks for the fight. Way to go! Let's hook up and see how you might fit in and help us out?"
You can't contact me here, i'm not allowed IMs. So contact me on your own forum now that it let me in. I look forward to doing anything I can and I won't even ask that you give me credit for one single thing.
Just let me help you.
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