Formidable new foe

[Vocalek]

The agency we need to look to as far as clean-air standards is not FDA, not EPA, but rather OSHA. As I understand it, OSHA does not actually perform testing. Private companies do the testing and report whether the air in a particular environment meets OSHA standards.

So does anyone on this forum test air quality, or have a friend, relative, or acquaintance who does so? Kevin Bacon, where are you when we need you?

[doots]

True TB and very good points made, but if we dont have iron clad proof SHV is SAFE, we are dead in the water to begin with and don't stand any chance against these morons..

[TropicalBob]

Agreed. Work is underway to get that second-hand vapor proof. Gotta have your facts first. Then fight.

[Angela]

Agreed. Work is underway to get that second-hand vapor proof. Gotta have your facts first. Then fight.

Good o hear ...I presume that if you were at liberty to say any more than that, you would have done so TB?

[doots]

Good o hear ...I presume that if you were at liberty to say any more than that, you would have done so TB?

agreed. ? lol /TB

[ctruth]

Unfortunately, manufacturers HAVE supplied science (all be it not a lot, but there IS Science available). It simply does not matter what science is presented, this organization WILL NOT accept it. It's a wild goose chase.

Here do this... Ok... here you go. Oh... no wait... we want this... Ok... here you go... Well... we should have clarified we want this... It's a never ending presentation of science and NONE of it will ever prove what they want and that is that the electronic cigarette should just go away.

Ditto
Like shoveling s--- against the tide.
It just keeps coming back, and coming back.....

[SmokeyJoe]

I hate to say it, but I don't think scientific proof is the issue here.

What we're dealing here is memes - powerful, destructive memes, but memes that are immature and based on older ones. I think they can be dealt with - but science isn't going to come good for us on this. If you don't know about memetics I suggest you read up - the wiki article is a good start.

The "e-cigs as environmentally dangerous" meme originates, IMO, like this: The accepted wisdom is that 3rd hand smoking is dangerous - on further analysis, the evidence for this is clear: smoke contains a variety of chemicals that are dangerous when inhaled from the atmosphere (I don't know much about the current controversy over 3rd hand smoke safety, btw, although I think it's safe to say that no-one is truly meme-proof, not even the surgeon general). I doubt very much that nicotine is one of these chemicals - there are masses that are likely far more dangerous.

However, the meme itself is simply: "3rd hand smoking is dangerous" - the evidence doesn't matter; it has now become received wisdom.

The meme that is developing in the communities referenced above is: "3rd hand vaping is dangerous" - the evidence doesn't matter, because the evidence no longer matters where smoke is concerned. It's the received wisdom that gets copied across to the new meme, not the original, factual basis of the origin of the first meme.

Looked at this way, it seems to me that they best way to combat this is to repeatedly ask people what evidence shows that nicotine is dangerous in the atmosphere. Ask to be shown the evidence. Do not feel that the burden of proof is on you to show that e-cigs are safe to 3rd parties (an impossible task), but politely and reasonably question the logic.

And remember, this is not the same thing as insisting that they are safe - it's a question of thinking through the issues in a logical way, and not being tied to dogma.

As one of our esteemed health professionals stated before, following Neitsche, if we are not careful we become our enemies. In this case, ex-smokers become like the Tobacco companies who for years obfuscated the growing body of evidence in favour of their own pre-created memes. "Smoking dangerous? Prove it!" they said, and despite overwhelming evidence that smoking is dangerous, they were able to deny it until a direct causal link was established. And even once smoking was proven to be dangerous, they created new memes: "OK, so smoking kills ya - but the cultural benefits far outweigh the dangers to individuals!" They paid for these memes too - Philosopher Roger Scruton was found to be on the payroll of Japanese Imperial Tobacco whilst pushing a pro-smoking message in the 80s. These memes are perpetuated today - Useful idiots like David Hockney claiming that smoking bans are destroying bohemia

But this applies to e-smokers too - our best strategy is to use critical thought and to be wary of received wisdom setting in. Listen to TropicalBob; when he says, we don't know e-smoking is safe, believe him. We don't and we may never know for sure. All we can do is to be logical and critical of ourselves and others - if we do this, I think vaping will come out on top.

And by the way, this and the other communities/organisations are the reason, IMHO, why the tide does seem to be turning towards e-cigs - the standard of critical thought set by many of our community is very high, and it does get heard above the din!

[/ Rant]

SJ

[unknwn]

Well it seems to be heating up folks, three instances of opposing propoganda from just as many major daily papers in a single day does not bode well for our adopted alternative to smoking.
If Judge Leon's decision magically appears before the end of the week, and happens to bow toward the anti's viewpoint, these same daily papers will be capitalizing on an "I told you so" soapbox so quickly, that your head will just keep spinning ('ala "The Exorcist").

We just got to hope that the hoopla has a chance to die down a little bit.
If not, we just might be witnessing that "death knell" occurring before our disbelieving ears.

[JustMeAgain]

What about people using no-nic in their pv? How can someone possibly ban that?

But if I get migraines from people wearing who bathe in perfume, that's just my tough luck.

[LaceyUnderall]

One thing is for certain and I believe, gets overlooked quite a bit here on ECF: Even though this has been an extremely difficult battle thus far, we are doing pretty damn good.

We have seen a reduction in the hard speaking points from ASH, ALF, and even the FDA. ASH UK just came out in our favor. We are seeing new organizations come out against the ecig and they will eventually be pushed off as the others were. We are seeing the ECA interviewed and quoted more often and we are seeing more articles, not opinion pieces, that are geared towards the ridiculousness of fighting the ecig. Consumers are being interviewed on a regular basis and instead of "I love my ecig" interviews, they are packed with facts... an educated smoker? Good god. We also have quite a troop of medical/scientific experts who seem to be saying the same thing: Let's give the ecig some time and a try!

We have seen a governor veto a ban and even though we are seeing smoking bans begin to include the electronic cigarette, there are smoking bans across the nation that are being fought right now that are not including the ecig. We saw Montana include the ecig in their definition of smoking bans after the fact, and then due to persistent community members, retract their original message and exclude the ecig.

A TON has been accomplished. Considering how we are really in the very early stages of this, we are all certainly doing very well.

At this point, many in the eSmoking/Vaping community who have been on this train for awhile now, have left the emotion behind and are fighting this with level headed, organized and scientifically backed responses.

We have a real chance here... And thus far, as "doom and gloom" as some might think... the picture really is quite bright thus far. Tiresome... but bright.

And the future vapor tests that should be around here shortly, will only give us more footing.