Fda crackdown looms

[e-pipeman]

If e-liquid were to be made illegal it would simply have the effect that such prohibitions tend to have - it would drive the manufacture and sale of the liquid into the hands of criminals. Then there would be no regulation of any kind with potentially horrific consequences. No-one wants to buy their e-liquid from a "dealer" - who knows what it will be cut with?

[QueenInNC]

I am sorry to be so blunt. It is how I am. But at the end of the day the facts still remain. Lets go down a few of them.

1) Technology from China- This alone raises all sorts of questions. Have we forgotten the Melamine milk scandal? Anyone see the report about pork dumplings sold on the street with cardboard used as filler? Just because they made it and some people use it does not make it safe.

2) Propolyne Glycol- This is a major component of some radiator fluids. That is a fact. While it is presently used in food products ingesting is far different than inhaling. If you are unsure about this try eating a pack of cigarettes and see what happens. More research on inhaling this over long terms is not unreasonable.

3) Vegetable Glycerin- Sounds good on the surface right. What harm could come veggie matter? Well castor bean extract is called ricin and minute amounts will kill you. This is another fact. Apparently if VG is heated enough it too becomes a poison. Atomizers claimed temps being below this do not make me feel comfortable. once again more research is needed.

4) Nicotine- Oh man! Just the mention of this one gets many folks up in arms. If it ain't taxed it's regulated by our ever caring government. This is a drug folks and we will slapped with one or the other. Just because other herbal extracts have survived without being banned or regulated this will not happen with nicotine extract. It is far too well known and chained to the evil known as "Cancer Sticks".

I will continue to play around with this vaping. It's pretty cool and the wife seems to be willing to replace it for analogs. I am the kind some seem to worry about. I actually stopped smoking over 6 months ago and am now vaping nicotine. Sad but true. So perhaps this is a legitimate concern?

I hate to think I am arming the wrong side by talking about this realisticly such as I have. Perhaps this is why many on this board seem so short sighted and opinionated. They are just trying extra hard to protect something potentially very cool. I just don't operate that way.

I would bet any amount of money that vaping is safer than analogs both short and long term. But vaping coming without any health risks whatsoever I highly doubt. Not even taking into account what nicotine does to your health.

I think vaping would really blossom with proper research and marketing but I cringe when I think of the players who want to make that happen. Big lobbies and government are rarely healthy for anyone.

Lorddrek

No one is trying to prove that it is "safe". Just safer as you stated in the previous sentence. If we have the choice to smoke chemical, toxins and tar in analogs, then we should have a say in this. Taxed (regulated) or not, we should have the option somehow. E smoking should be looked at closely and given a chance, IMO. It may save many lives. That is my point. If it pans out that it is more harmful than smoking then so be it. Ban it!

[bri1270]

If e-liquid were to be made illegal it would simply have the effect that such prohibitions tend to have - it would drive the manufacture and sale of the liquid into the hands of criminals. Then there would be no regulation of any kind with potentially horrific consequences. No-one wants to buy their e-liquid from a "dealer" - who knows what it will be cut with?

Agreed, which is why I'm all for regulation...not prohibition!

[stpeters]

... I truly believe that could be our answer to get past what is coming for our devices, but so many on this forum think that the idea is ridiculous. There are, however, some suppliers/retailers that are already making the change.

Good point. For those that "think that the idea is ridiculous", consider this:
Tobacco & PG (and 'tobacco tea suspended in a PG solution') is not a controlled or illegal substance. Do not compare our devices to "pot" paraphernalia please.[SIZE=2] It only weakens your case.

Given the above, these items are not drug paraphernalia according to the U.S. Supreme Court when they cited this Eight Circuit ruling:

Case No. 92-903
Section 857(d) - which, among other things, defines "drug paraphernalia" as any equipment "primarily intended or designed for use" with illegal drugs - does not serve as the basis for a subjective intent requirement on the part of the defendant, but merely establishes objective standards for determining what constitutes drug paraphernalia: the "designed for use" element refers to the manufacturer's design, while the "primarily intended . . . for use" standard refers generally to an item's likely use. However, neither this conclusion nor the absence of the word "knowingly" in 857(d)'s text means that Congress intended to dispense entirely with a scienter requirement. Rather, 857(a)(1) is properly construed under this Court's decisions as requiring the Government to prove that the defendant knowingly made use of an interstate conveyance as part of a scheme to sell items that he knew were likely to be used with Page II illegal drugs. It need not prove specific knowledge that the items are "drug paraphernalia" within the statute's meaning.

So yes, electronic cigarette parts are legal to sell as long as they are intended to be used with essence of Tobacco or just flavorings and PG. They are not considered drug paraphernalia. Anything the FDA says to the contrary is a bluff and a bold faced lie.

[green-lantern]

I need to stock up!

and one more post so I can quote TT

[fatman]

I am sorry to be so blunt. It is how I am. But at the end of the day the facts still remain. Lets go down a few of them.

1) Technology from China- This alone ...

Lorddrek

Excellent points Lorddrek. We can't just hope that by keeping our heads low that we will fly under the radar. All that can happen there is that we will be unprepared when the axe falls.

The truth is that this business would benefit from the studies and perhaps from regulation. The reason there is so much emotion around here is that we don't really know anything. We hope, but don't *know* and knowledge would help legitimize these things if in fact they are safe.

Knowledge is empowering.

[The Wiz]

This tactic may end up getting the message and the messenger confused, which could end up disastrous to our cause.

There are lots of things the Fox news bunch and Rush championed that never happened since many will appose anything they say merely on principal. Plus, the right wing already would be mostly sympathetic to us, so it would be preaching to the choir.

Now get someone like Oprah to vouch for this and ask some hard questions of the FDA... that might work.

Oprah.........Damn, that's the ticket...friends with Obama.Sounds like a plan to me!The Wiz!

[green-lantern]

The juice is the root of our FDA problem. It is because of the liquid being sold directly with the device that the device is now a part of a "Drug/Device Combination" according to the FDA. I have written on several posts that if the manufacturers would separate the liquid from the device at the point of sale, we could possibly sidestep any real effects that a ban would have. The term "Electronic Cigarette", though, has locked the device to the liquid. Therefore, a name change for the device should also be made to separate its connection to the liquid. A "Bong" is only a "Bong" if you market it as something that you put pot in. If you call it a "Water Pipe", and do not give any instruction on what to put in it, then it is just a device (free of illegal intent). I truly believe that could be our answer to get past what is coming for our devices, but so many on this forum think that the idea is ridiculous. There are, however, some suppliers/retailers that are already making the change.

You like my sig?


Good post man!

[TribbleTrouble]

Quote:

"Do not compare our devices to "pot" paraphernalia please."

I was not the one who first made the argument to view this issue this way, but it is a valid argument, none the less. By the way, being a realist is one thing, being an apathetic pessimist is something completely different. People on this forum need to stop talking down to other people who are trying to make a difference. You may think you are superior (Just like Bob), but the fact remains that apathetic pessimists never seem to provide any answers to problems. They only seem to point out the obvious (like they are the only one's who can see the obvious). Please help the cause, don't belittle it.

[Obi Wan]

Thanks for the post, Sun. Reality is setting in. Anyone who has read extensively on this forum for any length of time knew this was coming.

This is at least the third alarm, however. Before long, it won't be possible to hit the "snooze" button and continue blissful ignorance. Act on your own behalf now.

There's a lot of ignorance in this thread, and a lot of venting. Nowhere is there a sound, logical sequence of arguments to continue the marketing of an unregulated drug of untested purity and content from China. Step back from your e-cig, look dispassionately about our practice and devices -- and you'll see that this isn't some conspiracy to take away freedom, reward lobbyists, assure revenue, etc. It's an agency doing it job. Enforcing protective measures is what the FDA must do.

It knows nothing, and we know nothing, about the real safety of what we're doing. Until that is known, continuing down the unknown path is untenable. I expect harsher measures loom.

I agree,,
the only hope is testing with positive results,and the only hope of testing will be from the bigger money companies that can afford the kind of test that would be approved by the FDA,,
all our postitive reviews and letters can help awareness but without someone like target or njoy funding the right tests the fda and alot of the media will keep answering in a negative way with the fact that there isnt enough proof of the safety of these.
and Tropical Bob is right,, theres no proof of the safety.

yet !