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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosco View Post
    I can understand that for sure. But...IF he could lend a positive voice for the cause, I'd be thankful.
    Without a doubt, I agree completely. In fact I've already emailed Rush, along with my local and federal representatives. I plan on sending snail mail on Monday too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManicMaurice View Post
    I live in super liberal NYC, so getting into bed with Rush feels kinda dirty, but desperate times call for desperate measures.
    I understand that there are probably as many Rush *haters* as there are Rush *lovers*, but hey, I don't care if he's the Abominable Snowman - as long as he makes news. And few are in the news these days as much as Rush! LOL

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    Has the FDA ever seized packages from USA vendors, or is it all the "orders from China" stuff? Now, don't get me wrong, the FDA seizing these things drives our costs up, since the vendors have to deal with the seizures. So go ahead and object. But, as to your personal supplies, what's the big deal? Just order from USA vendors (if you are in the USA) and you shouldn't have an issue.

    I don't happen to agree with the FDA seizures. The courts don't seem to either. I do agree with, (and feel sorry for) LynGBH and any others that are appalled by anti-government hate speech in all forms. Remember, if you hate the Government, change it. "government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth" - so change it! Get rid of the PACs.... and reform financing. That should help! And do it by legal means, not "by any means necessary" as was quoted. Balance and civility are the order of the day here.

    I am repeatedly impressed by CASAA, Vocalek and others (many of the posters on the forum) using their opinions and the political process to effect change regarding PV usage and legislation. Keep up the good work! A positive, non destructive way to direct any anger, frustrations, and concern. Unfortunately, such efforts often require time and patience.

    Fear not! The growing popularity of e-cigs, the fighting of misinformation, and the education of the population will win out in the end. Patience!
    Last edited by AttyPops; 01-16-2011 at 02:26 PM.
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  4. #84
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    I bet some US vendors order from outside the US, e.g. China. So that means that US vendors orders get seized. Big loss for vendors, supply shortage to consumbers, encouragement to fda.
    I am a member of CASAA. Anyone else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosco View Post
    I bet some US vendors order from outside the US, e.g. China. So that means that US vendors orders get seized. Big loss for vendors, supply shortage to consumbers, encouragement to fda.
    I am a member of CASAA. Anyone else?
    Agreed. They DO order from China. That's why I said it drives our costs up, and I'm concerned about it. OTHO, we should not experience many, if any, shortages from the USA vendors. Sometimes there is a bit of delay. They re-order quickly. If they (the FDA guys) go too "hog wild" on the seizures, it could be trouble. IDK why they are seizing them... random "spot" checks for DEG or some such? Otherwise, besides the juice, it's just electronics. Maybe the vendors can separate their orders into "juice containing" and "hardware"????? Anyone know if that matters?
    Last edited by AttyPops; 01-16-2011 at 02:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttyPops View Post
    I do agree with, (and feel sorry for) LynGBH and any others that are appalled by anti-government hate speech in all forms. Remember, if you hate the Government, change it. "government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth" - so change it! Get rid of the PACs.... and reform financing. That should help! And do it by legal means, not "by any means necessary" as was quoted. Balance and civility are the order of the day here.
    If only we lived in a perfect world where you could tell the FDA en masse that you disagree with them and they would say "Really? Oh, OK, we will reverse our policy on electronic cigarettes then". Such is wishful thinking.
    The govt and it's cronies pretend your opinion doesn't exist, they block their ears to it, then when you raise your voice they call you a 'dangerous radical element'.

    change it
    How? By voting out the incumbents at the next election and replacing them with similarly tinnitus ridden politicians? Why can't people grasp the fact that they are entrapped in a catch 22 of replacing one corrupt person with another every 2 years?
    Fighting the misinformation is great, and that is our only option. Don't think for one second that we will get the FDA to back off though, because we won't. Getting enough people to switch to vaping and just hoping the tax burden isn't put out of the average person's reach is the best we can hope for.

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    Well, Scribbles, I take your points. I'm a little more optimistic about the future of e-cigs, I guess. I think we will win out in the end.

    We do have to remember that although we are an opinionated group (myself in particular!) that we are a minority.... smokers and vapers. Thus, we tend to bear the brunt of the "sin taxes" and "anti-anything-that-looks-like-smoke" crowd. Look at Alcohol... kills a lot of people. Not as heavily taxed, nor constantly confiscated (not that I want it to be, mind you). So, in reality, it's about the numbers... % of voting population. Oh, and the money grabs too.

    I think if we can educate the population on the benefits of e-cigs for non-smokers, non-vapers it might help. No carcinogens from 2nd hand or "3rd hand" (hate that term) smoke.

    What I really can't figure out, is WHY so anti-e-cig? The USA is looking closely at health care costs, trying to get a handle on them, and no matter what side of the argument you are on, everyone wants to get a handle on the costs, businesses in particular. We disagree as to how. Now, we have e-cigs, which could be the greatest boost to national health since aspirin, and they try to BAN it. Can't figure it, unless it's the money-grab/taxes issue. And if it really gets down to that, it would be shameful for all Americans. There must be a motivation in addition to that. What does the FDA say?

    EDIT: Thought: The FDA is in a tough spot to some degree too.... If they ignore e-cigs, they risk not doing their job. Remember that we don't have decades of research on e-cig use. OTOH, the courts have said they can't regulate them like drug devices (possibly to the FDA's delight...think about it) so they have little control over them. Yet they still confiscate them. If it were a liability issue, why would they not just take the judicial ruling as an abdication of responsibility? If they feel there is a real health issue, rather than gain, what is the issue?
    Last edited by AttyPops; 01-16-2011 at 03:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttyPops View Post
    I think if we can educate the population on the benefits of e-cigs for non-smokers, non-vapers it might help. No carcinogens from 2nd hand or "3rd hand" (hate that term) smoke.
    I think it is smokers we need to educate personally. Your average Joe Shmoe non-smoker doesn't want to breath in anything other than smog and traffic pollution. [SARCASM]It's their constitutional right, don't ya know?[/SARCASM]
    I think 30m ex-smokers, converted to vaping, will carry a lot of weight with legislators. Telling all your smoking friends about how they won't know the difference in taste and satisfaction between this and tobacco is the best way forward IMO.
    I know someone that wouldn't try my e-cig because she thought it might put her off of smoking. Go figure? lol

  9. #89
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    Default FDAs Waste of Taxpayer Dollars

    When the Post Office opens back up on Tuesday, I am sending copies of the following letter to Congressman Gerry E. Connolly, Senator Jim Webb, and Senator Mark Warner of Virginia. With margins set at 0.75 all around and font of Times New Roman 11, it just managed to fit on one page. I included my name, address, and home phone number.

    Subject: FDAs Waste of Taxpayer Dollars

    Dear _____:

    The U.S. Food and Drug Administration needs to reduce spending on unnecessary activities. These activities can have a ripple effect on spending across other agencies. Take, for example, the FDAs campaign to ban personal nicotine inhalers, aka electronic cigarettes.

    The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia ruled in January 2010 that, in the absence of health claims, the FDA cannot regulate electronic cigarettes under the Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act. The court issued an Injunction against seizures of imported products. Judge Richard J. Leon suggested that the FDA regulate the products under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (Tobacco Act). Rather than removing electronic cigarettes from Import Alert 66-41, the FDA appealed the ruling asking for a stay of the Injunction issued by the lower court. The stay was granted while the issue was being considered. In December, 2010, the U.S. Court of Appeals upheld the lower court ruling and reinstated the Injunction.

    As of January 13, 2011, electronic cigarettes remain listed on Import Alert 66-41, involving unnecessary labor on the part of U.S. Customs, which could be spending its time more productively blocking imports of dangerous products. Furthermore, the FDA continues to appeal the rulings of two levels of the U.S. Federal Court system, piling up additional unnecessary expenditures for legal expertise from the Department of Justice as well as Federal court costs.

    Now, let us consider the product that FDA is working so feverishly to remove from the U.S. market. Both the lower court and the appeals court noted that the FDA has failed to provide evidence that electronic cigarettes have harmed anyone. Au contraire, it is estimated that about one million smokers have switched to inhaling vaporized nicotine. Consumer surveys show that approximately 80% are using the products as a complete replacement for smoking, and that over 90% report their health has improved. Consumers tend to be older people who smoked for decades and were unable to quit using the FDA-approved products. Consider how much money the Medicare system can save if millions of smokers quit before they develop lung disease, cancer, a heart attack, or a stroke.

    Another example of the FDAs waste of taxpayer dollars is the warning letter sent to General Mills on May 5, 2009, claiming that Cheerios are an unapproved new drug because the label states truthfully that the product can help to lower cholesterol levels. The FDA said General Mills must "promptly" correct the violations outlined in the letter or the agency could take enforcement action, such as seizing products.

    In both these cases, no lives have been lost, and no ones health has been harmed. If the FDA has the time and resources to pursue activities such as these, perhaps it needs to have its budget reduced. FDA leadership may need training in how to prioritize activities. A good start is for the FDA to focus its product seizure efforts on products that actually harm people.

    Sincerely,


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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttyPops View Post
    Well, Scribbles, I take your points. I'm a little more optimistic about the future of e-cigs, I guess. I think we will win out in the end.

    We do have to remember that although we are an opinionated group (myself in particular!) that we are a minority.... smokers and vapers. Thus, we tend to bear the brunt of the "sin taxes" and "anti-anything-that-looks-like-smoke" crowd. Look at Alcohol... kills a lot of people. Not as heavily taxed, nor constantly confiscated (not that I want it to be, mind you). So, in reality, it's about the numbers... % of voting population. Oh, and the money grabs too.

    I think if we can educate the population on the benefits of e-cigs for non-smokers, non-vapers it might help. No carcinogens from 2nd hand or "3rd hand" (hate that term) smoke.

    What I really can't figure out, is WHY so anti-e-cig? The USA is looking closely at health care costs, trying to get a handle on them, and no matter what side of the argument you are on, everyone wants to get a handle on the costs, businesses in particular. We disagree as to how. Now, we have e-cigs, which could be the greatest boost to national health since aspirin, and they try to BAN it. Can't figure it, unless it's the money-grab/taxes issue. And if it really gets down to that, it would be shameful for all Americans. There must be a motivation in addition to that. What does the FDA say?

    EDIT: Thought: The FDA is in a tough spot to some degree too.... If they ignore e-cigs, they risk not doing their job. Remember that we don't have decades of research on e-cig use. OTOH, the courts have said they can't regulate them like drug devices (possibly to the FDA's delight...think about it) so they have little control over them. Yet they still confiscate them. If it were a liability issue, why would they not just take the judicial ruling as an abdication of responsibility? If they feel there is a real health issue, rather than gain, what is the issue?
    I believe with FDA, it is an issue of control. The more they control, the more important they feel. It is incorrect that the FDA has little control over the safety of the products. Judge Leon stated that the FDA can take care of any product safety issues it might have by regulating the products under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act ("Tobacco Act.") This opinion was upheld by the U.S. District Court of Appeals.

    If all FDA cared about was public health, it would be promulgating regulations for manufacturing standards, labeling, etc. under the Tobacco Act. FDA wants to regulate them under FDCA so that it can say, "Take these off the market until you spend millions of dollars and about 10 years of testing to meet requirements for the New Drug Approval process."

    And I don't believe that anyone in the FDA gives a Fiddler's Damn about expenditures by other agencies or by individual citizens. The more power they hang on to, the more Federal budget dollars they can claim.
    Last edited by Vocalek; 01-16-2011 at 04:53 PM.


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