What? Is This Guy an Idiot??

[Sicarius]

The point was that if you vaping 5ml of juice at 20mg strength (100mg nicotine daily) you are not de facto a 5PAD equivalent.

[TomCatt]

I think the point is is that nicotine is NOT the dangerous part of cigarette smoking; it's everything else in the smoke. If I chain smoked to many cigarettes, I could feel the effects. If I chain VAPE too much on my PV, I can feel the effects. The POINT is when I'm vaping I'm not also inhaling numerous known toxins and carcinogens.

It doesn't matter how many 'cigarette equivalents' I'm vaping because in no way, shape or form is smoke equivalent to vapor.


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[ctourtelot]

Yes and No

Can't argue with any of it really. There is no safe level, Analogue user know how much they consuming, Digital users don't know how much they consuming.

"There is no safe level of tobacco smoke. With tobacco cigarettes a user generally knows how much nicotine is being consumed. They know if they are a half-a-pack-a-day smoker. When it comes to an electronic cigarette, you just don't know. You just keep on smoking," Neville said.

I don't know the exact amounts, that is true. However, my body does know when I have gotten too little or too much. Unfortunately for me, I'm cheap and would never waste a cigarette so even when it started to make me sick, I'd finish it. If I start feeling a bit off with my ecig, I just put it down.

What these people don't realize is that most of us are responsible human beings. I don't need to be told that I shouldn't use an ecig because I can't measure the amount of nicotine it distributes. I vape when I feel the urge and don't when I'm not feeling it.

[Striker911]

I just vape till I fall over. When I wake up I vape more. Id say my Provari is a weapon. If I threw it at someone. Good point on the other things in analogs OP. I was about to post the same thing. What about the negs of cigs, how do u measure the other stuff we no longer inhale? Fact of the matter is that even smoking cigs I never knew how much nic I was getting. It was just me killing myself, and no one cared except my loved ones. Now dude has the nerve to say they where better? What a douche.

[Vocalek]

The ANTZ have smokers stereotyped: Low level of education, low SES (that's socioeconomic status in plain-speak), low IQ, plus rude, and uncouth.

The ANTZ believe that all the "smart" peeps quit smoking years and years ago. Those who kept on smoking must be too stupid to understand that the practice is hazardous. That's why they have "classes" for people who want to quit smoking.

[rothenbj]

The OP's title is giving idiots a bad name.

"Compared to the "unknowns" in a cigarette- we vapors know a whole hell of a lot more. I go through 5~6 ml of 18mg/ml nicotine concentration a day...I know EXACTLY how much I get!"

This is seriously OT, well maybe not, considering the comments made by David Neville. When I was smoking, I had between 40 and 50 smokes a day. Now I'm sure I didn't smoke that many cigarettes, but there was a lot of side stream smoke I was also inhaling. How much nicotine and all that other nasty stuff was I inhaling? I don't have a freaking idea.

A bit less than three years later, I'm perfectly happy with 4-5 portions of snus (consistent now for over two years) and 1 to 2 ml of 18-24ml WTA liquid a WEEK. I can actually put my PV down for weeks with no issue. It's more like a treat than an addiction because of the flavors.

Now I don't know how to compare cigarette nicotine to the nic in snus and nicquid, but I can't imagine a can and a half of snus and a couple ml of nicquid comes anywhere near my consumption of 350 cigarettes a week.

[Vocalek]

I just vape till I fall over. When I wake up I vape more. Id say my Provari is a weapon. If I threw it at someone. Good point on the other things in analogs OP. I was about to post the same thing. What about the negs of cigs, how do u measure the other stuff we no longer inhale? Fact of the matter is that even smoking cigs I never knew how much nic I was getting. It was just me killing myself, and no one cared except my loved ones. Now dude has the nerve to say they where better? What a douche.

Kind of reminds me of an old joke: I don't have a drinking problem. I drink. I get drunk. I fall down. No problem!

[dlsw]

The ANTZ have smokers stereotyped: Low level of education, low SES (that's socioeconomic status in plain-speak), low IQ, plus rude, and uncouth.

The ANTZ believe that all the "smart" peeps quit smoking years and years ago. Those who kept on smoking must be too stupid to understand that the practice is hazardous. That's why they have "classes" for people who want to quit smoking.

Really... Hmmm interesting. Most of us are intelligent and well educated enough to find this forum and read and understand the pros and cons. I think it would be interesting to find out how many of us have advanced degrees. I suspect the number would be high.

[Semiretired]

I wish I could find it, but anyways several years back it was found that a lot of highly educated professionals smoked due to stress and the stress was also the reason they had problems quitting. It is also a fact that at least us of the older generation - from the 70's and back grew up when smoking was a way of the world. It was done everywhere. It was advertised everywhere. etc. etc. etc...

[Vocalek]

I sure wish these smart scientists would learn to read.

The quote from the news story:

However, according to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, e-cigarettes contain harmful levels of nicotine, a substance the agency classifies as a stimulant drug.

Their source is an FDA press release about tests conducted in 2009: FDA and Public Health Experts Warn About Electronic Cigarettes

Here is every sentence that contains the word "nicotine".

• Electronic cigarettes, also called “e-cigarettes,” are battery-operated devices that generally contain cartridges filled with nicotine, flavor and other chemicals. ¹
• The electronic cigarette turns nicotine, which is highly addictive, and other chemicals into a vapor that is inhaled by the user.
• In addition, these products do not contain any health warnings comparable to FDA-approved nicotine replacement products or conventional cigarettes. ²
• Public health experts expressed concern that electronic cigarettes could increase nicotine addiction and tobacco use in young people. ³
• Because these products have not been submitted to the FDA for evaluation or approval, at this time the agency has no way of knowing, except for the limited testing it has performed, the levels of nicotine or the amounts or kinds of other chemicals that the various brands of these products deliver to the user. ⁴

None of the above sentences can be interpreted to mean "The FDA said the products definitely contain harmful levels of nicotine."

Maybe they used the Summary of FDA Analyses document? Let's look: Summary of Results: Laboratory Analysis of Electronic Cigarettes Conducted By FDA

[QUOTE]

• The electronic cigarette cartridges that were labeled as containing no nicotine had low levels of nicotine present in all cartridges tested, except one.
• Three different electronic cigarette cartridges with the same label were tested and each cartridge emitted a markedly different amount of nicotine with each puff. The nicotine levels per puff ranged from 26.8 to 43.2 mcg nicotine/100 mL puff.
• One high-nicotine cartridge delivered twice as much nicotine to users when the vapor from that electronic cigarette brand was inhaled than was delivered by a sample of the nicotine inhalation product (used as a control) approved by FDA for use as a smoking cessation aid.

/QUOTE]

Would these qualify as "dangerous levels"? According to Health New Zealand's Poster 5-11, Society for Research on Nicotine and Tobacco (SRNT) Dublin, April 30, 2009; updated 27 May

Nicotine delivery per puff: A 35 mL puff from the Ruyan® V8 delivers only 10% of the nicotine obtained from a similar puff of a Marlboro regular cigarette.

Notice that HNZ was working with a 35 mL puff, compared with the 100 mL puff used in the FDA's testing. Figure 2 in the NNZ document shows the e-cigarette delivering 9 or 10 micrograms per 35 mL puff, while the nicotine ranged from 48 to 103 micrograms per 35 mL puff for Marlboro Red.

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/DublinEcigBenchtopHandout.pdf

We need to compare equivalent-sized puffs to relate the FDA's report to the HNZ report. If we multiply the FDA's measurements by .35, we come up with values of 9.38 to 15.12--not significantly higher than the nicotine levels measured in a 35 mL puff by HNZ. And last time I looked, the range of 48 to 103 (smoke) is a whole bunch higher than a range of 9 to 15 (vapor).

If the FDA had measured the quantity of nicotine in 100 mL puffs of smoke from the same Marlboro cigarettes tested by HNZ, the range would be between 137.14 and 294.28 micrograms for the Marlboro.

You be the judge. Do any of the per-puff nicotine levels for e-cigarette vapor reported by the FDA exceed the levels you used to get from smoke?

So maybe the source of this "fact" is the actual FDA lab report? Let's look: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/S.../UCM173250.pdf

I did a search for "harmful levels" and got no hits.

Did a search for "harmful" and found this:

The Center is concerned that in addition to nicotine delivery, the vapor may also provide other potentially harmful volatile components.

The above sentence appears in the Background section where the researcher is describing what they were looking for in their tests. And even though the results shows that the FDA "DETECTED" nicotine in cartridges that were labeled as containing no nicotine, this is what the report states about "simulated use."

Nicotine was detected in both products for all cartridges containing low, medium and high levels of nicotine but was not observed in cartridges identified as containing no nicotine. Screening for the possible tobacco specific impurities cotinine, nicotine-N-oxide, nornicotine, anabasine and myosmine was negative. β-Nicotyrine was detected in all Njoy cartridges but was not detected in the Smoking Everywhere cartridges.

A subsequent evaluation of the FDA's test methods and report noted that β-Nicotyrine is not carcinogenic, nor is it toxic. So the bottom line is that when the FDA examined the vapor, they found nothing whatsoever that was harmful.

I am not a scientist. If a lay person can read and comprehend this stuff, what's holding back the scientists from learning the same information? Maybe they just don't want to know.

________________
² Notice how they cleverly made it sound as if nicotine is the major ingredient, by listing it first and preceding it with the phrase "filled with."
² I guess that the FDA figured they could get away with saying this, even though NJOY, the brand that I was using at the time, had all the health warnings that appear on FDA-approved nicotine product. (e.g., Nicotine is addictive, don't use if you are pregnant, may increase heart rate and BP, etc.) If anyone ever pointed that fact out, the FDA could just say, "We didn't name names. We just said 'these products.' We were talking about the other brand, the brand that doesn't have the warnings." Maybe they had their fingers crossed.
³ "Expressed concern that" and "could" --- the very epitome of a "definite maybe."
⁴ Translation: "Well we (the FDA) could not find any dangerous chemicals or dangerously high levels of nicotine -- but it could happen! We won't know until every single cartridge in the world has been tested."