Clive Bates on Tobacco Control - 9 July 2014 - "The Conversation"
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Thread: Clive Bates on Tobacco Control - 9 July 2014 - "The Conversation"

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    Default Clive Bates on Tobacco Control - 9 July 2014 - "The Conversation"

    Excellent long comment by Clive Bates (6 hours ago) on "Public health" blathering that puts "unity in tobacco control" before the health of human beings

    https://theconversation.com/is-big-t...garettes-28328

    - Precise summary of our concerns. And great ending:

    I suggest tobacco control advocates try three things: (1) take a sceptical but open-minded view of the possible role that tobacco companies will have, given the competitive dynamic between them - my view is that they will be prime movers in transforming their own industry and the 'endgame': (2) be a careful what they wish for and recognise that 'strict regulation' is a gift to the big players, slows innovation, denies smokers options and protects cigarettes; (3) get back to basics: it the cancer, cardiovascular disease and lung disease that matters - any war with an industry is subordinate to this. May I recommend reading some testimonies from vapers - and approaching the subject with a little more empathy and humility? Try these, unsolicited testimonies left on my website: Where is the humility? Where is the empathy? « The counterfactual
    (emphasis mine)
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    Thanks for posting, Anja. Excellent comments all around, yours in particular.
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    Indeed, thank you for the read.
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    I concur with the previous comments. On a minor point, I have to say that it brought a little smile to my lips when I read, "The companies are focussed on the combined profit pool of tobacco and e-cigarettes, but they are strongly competitive with each other and will lose market share to other tobacco companies or non-tobacco e-cigarette / vapour business if they don't product products that smokers want, and better products than their rivals (BAT will not mind 'losing' a smoker to one of its e-cigarettes, but it won't want to lose her to NJOY or PMI)."

    Kudos to Clive for his inclusiveness.

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    Every time I read the word "endgame" it makes my skin crawl because it just sounds too much like "Endlösung"

    OTT, great commentary by Clive. Thanks for posting.
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    Clive and I have had many dozens (perhaps hundreds) of discussions with Becky Freeman (and her mentor Simon Chapman) about tobacco harm reduction products and policies during the past 15 years (when Clive was director of ASH UK), but Freeman is professional obfuscater who only knows how to demonize tobacco companies.

    I posted the following comment on Freeman's rant. It appears on my screen, but don't know if they've posted it for others to see.



    As one who has actively urged tobacco companies to develop and market far less hazardous smokeless tobacco and e-cigarettes to cigarette smokers for most of the past decade (and who has sent Becky Freeman weekly news updates about our successful public health campaign to convince smokers to switch to smokefree alternatives), I'm disappointed she has once again (for the nth time) chosen to obfuscate by creating straw man arguments against tobacco companies.

    A far more important public health issue is Australia's unethical and inhumane laws (advocated by Becky Freeman and her mentor Simon Chapman) that deny addicted cigarette smokers legal and affordable access to exponentially less hazardous snus and e-cigarettes.

    Those Australian laws are public health malpractice, and they dwarf the number of suffering syphilis victims the US Public Health Service denied treatment (to watch them die) in its infamous Tuskegee Study decades ago.

    Denying suffering smokers smokefree alternatives is also cruel and unusual punishment that demonstrates disdain for the lives and health of smokers (and the nonsmokers who have to breath the tobacco smoke pollution created by their cigarette smoking).

    All real public health advocates (and other ethical and humane individuals) support cigarette smokers switching to less hazardous smokefree alternatives, and support their right to legally access these alternatives.

    Unfortunately, intolerant extremists have taken over the old anti smoking public health movement (especially in Australia), and they've outrageously banned the least hazardous tobacco/nicotine products while keeping the deadliest products (i.e. cigarettes) on the market. Even ...... can understand that those policies protect cigarette markets at the expense of public health.

    Protecting and preserving cigarette markets (by banning snus and e-cigs) while demonizing cigarette companies is deadly hypocrisy.

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    @Bill Godshall:
    Excellent comment And they DID publish it.

    .........

    Quote Originally Posted by DrMA View Post
    Every time I read the word "endgame" it makes my skin crawl because it just sounds too much like "Endlösung"
    I agree. Also for me, a German person, "end game" sounds exactly like "Endlösung" - and all in all, it has the same objective Final Solution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    After all, the "war on tobacco" is not fought on tobacco. Cigarettes are freely available. Instead, the "war" is fought on human beings. With the (professed) intention of having them die out. And the contempt of human beings is very evident indeed Rampant Antismoking Signifies Grave Danger

    Yes. To a German person that rhetoric sounds very familiar indeed. Also see here: http://www.tobakkonacht.com/preface.html

    Edit:
    Oh, that woman was "mentored" by Simon Chapman? That explains her open contempt.
    After all, Simon Chapman is the author of the infamous phrase "taking any kind of stick, a cigarette stick or a vape stick, is a pathetic, juvenile act" (Clive Bates Blog, comments)
    Last edited by Anjaffm; 07-09-2014 at 05:42 PM.
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    Very tough provoking thread.

    I the past, due mostly to naivety, I was not against some form of regulation for the vaporising of e-juices industry and commerce to assure the integrity of the products offered.

    With a little information, I now realise that there is no such a thing as 'little' regulations. Too much vested interests and too much greed and dishonesty from the majority of politicians makes this impossible.
    Last edited by Tangaroav; 07-09-2014 at 05:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangaroav View Post
    Very tough provoking thread.

    I the past, due mostly to naivety, I was not against some form of regulation for the vaporising of e-juices.

    With a little information, I now realise that there is no such a thing as 'little' regulations. Too much vested interests and too much greed and dishonesty from the majority of politicians.
    Thank you!
    It is this kind of comment, like yours, that makes it all worthwhile.
    Do check the "Media and General News" once in a while, this section can be a great source of information. (Including postings by those vaping activists who do not / who no longer post in many general threads, for reasons of their own).
    Yes, there is no such thing as "little" regulation. As mere "regulation" (as in protecting consumers, who are already protected by existing product laws and regulations) is the last thing on the mind of such people. What they are really attempting to protect is the cigarette market. Because the cigarette market, the smoking gravy train, feeds them. "Public health" is the last thing on the minds of those "public health" activists who scream the loudest against our healthier choice.
    I am happy that this thread has opened your eyes. That makes it all worthwhile.
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    And excellent piece by Carl Phillips about the same silly blathering from down under:

    Economic illiteracy about tobacco, from the antepode | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

    Just a small excerpt:

    In the TCI, you just extract tax money from consumers, and so every penny is pure profit, leading to an inability to understand the difference between revenue and profit. The failure to understand the basic functioning of industry — despite TCI’s obsession with industry — is further illustrated by not realizing that major companies with hugely successful product lines still try to do new things on a different scale. Having large units and blockbuster products does not mean you cannot also do well with some small units. You would think that the pharma industry could explain that to them.
    (TCI = Tobacco Control Industry)

    well worth reading
    Last edited by Anjaffm; 07-09-2014 at 08:04 PM.
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