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Thread: Big tobacco take on e-cigarette's health issue

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpots View Post
    Agree, disagree - good debates and discussions will bring in all sides of the subject.

    Yes, BT is in the e-cig business, but only for itself. It's no doubt in my mind that they will still lobby and push to monopolize the market with their products with biased testing to ban vaping as we know it now. It will either come in the form of providing misleading information such as what the OP stated, that the inconsistencies in current deliver devices are of concern, or that the batteries/mods we use are questionable in safety, or some other spin. But, they will try to oust what options we have, thereby giving consumers only their products to purchase
    A good debate isn't based on "bringing in all sides of the subject" only, but also on bringing explanations and rationality to the discussion. The best way to conduct this debate would be to prove that "BT-provided misleading information" are, in fact, wrong. And not using the non sequitur of "it is wrong because it comes from BT".

    That aside, I agree with you that BT is in the e-cig business only for itself and will do whatever itcan to crush independent vaping products. And this is why, in my opinion, leveling the field by providing provable and reproducible data to the discussion, is the only way to win this "battle".

    My too :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalr View Post
    A good debate isn't based on "bringing in all sides of the subject" only, but also on bringing explanations and rationality to the discussion. The best way to conduct this debate would be to prove that "BT-provided misleading information" are, in fact, wrong. And not using the non sequitur of "it is wrong because it comes from BT".

    That aside, I agree with you that BT is in the e-cig business only for itself and will do whatever itcan to crush independent vaping products. And this is why, in my opinion, leveling the field by providing provable and reproducible data to the discussion, is the only way to win this "battle".

    My too :-)
    Are you speaking as a citizen of Switzerland? Or are you talking American BT? And if you mean American BT, then what is your provable, reproducible data - other than what your friend advised you?

    I am genuinely interested in what facts you can bring as well. Some have already been produced on this thread in links.
    Last edited by flowerpots; 10-29-2013 at 06:43 PM.
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    I'm interested in this and a bit confused by it. Doesn't every drag on a smoke produce a "burnt" nic molecule? Thus far, I've seen nothing that indicates nicotine is carcinogenic while other substances burned in a smoke definitely are. Yet, your friend recommends inhaling those to get your nic? These molecules in smoke are certainly taken deep into the lungs... no doubt as deeply as the perported dangerous ones in overly burned nic vapor and, again, the advice is to smoke? It seems a biased choice to me and bias has no place in science. Its really quite confusing.
    Last edited by patkin; 10-29-2013 at 07:01 PM.
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    Well, as first principles, let's use a little reason here.

    A cigarette burns at approx 700 degrees C. according to:
    http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae1.cfm

    (And if you don't trust that site, the gov't estimates it can be as high as 900C:

    Chemistry and Toxicology of Cigarette Smoke and Biomarkers of Exposure and Harm - How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease: The Biology and Behavioral Basis for Smoking-Attributable Disease - NCBI Bookshelf


    Boiling point of Glycerine is 290C, PG is 188.2C

    So what the OP's friend is saying is that long after all the PG and VG has boiled away, the coil gets much much hotter, and there is still enough nicotine left over on the coil that could burn and cause problems, and that it is more dangerous than a cigarette (where virtually ALL the nicotine is burned at 700C)?

    Sorry, that's just not credible to me.
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    What is alarming about a nicotine molecule being stuck in the throat? Does anyone have a clue?

    I believe there are studies on potentially harmful products produced with anything charred -- yup, those grill marks on your steak/fish and even a piece of toast. Health food industry and raw foods advocates can get pretty annoyed about charred foods. Perhaps charred e-liquid could be in the same category, but calling it worse than burned tobacco leaves (hmm -- is there no-nic de-caf tobacco now?) is beyond my comprehension.

    Warning: Do not grill eggplant as it may be harmful to your health. Vegetable contains nicotine. BT has deemed charred nicotine to be harmful to your health.

    I have a feeling we will be seeing lots of studies in the coming months with quite varied findings, and often interpreted to prove a pre-set view. Just like picking out gear, we have to be savy and make our own decisions. Every vegan can tell you how bad animal products are for the human body, which is clearly omnivore in structure and requires supplements that only occur in animal proteins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flowerpots View Post
    Are you speaking as a citizen of Switzerland? Or are you talking American BT? And if you mean American BT, then what is your provable, reproducible data - other than what your friend advised you?

    I am genuinely interested in what facts you can bring as well. Some have already been produced on this thread in links.
    Look, I think you have me confused with someone else here. I came here to get a second opinion on what I had heard. It's definitely because I couldn't find any proof whatsoever of what I'd heard that I posted this. It's because I care about my health that I feel concerned and willing to explore all possibilities, not the least because extended research on the field is kinda thin. I can't see, in what I wrote, what may make you think I had any kind of proof when my very first message was about getting a second opinion.

    If there's no truth to what I heard, then fine! I'll be feeling much better about vaping.

    You can call me over-cautious, yes. Over-zealous in my quest for information, yes. But being called a troll? Really?
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    Quote Originally Posted by twgbonehead View Post
    Well, as first principles, let's use a little reason here.

    A cigarette burns at approx 700 degrees C. according to:
    http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae1.cfm

    (And if you don't trust that site, the gov't estimates it can be as high as 900C:

    Chemistry and Toxicology of Cigarette Smoke and Biomarkers of Exposure and Harm - How Tobacco Smoke Causes Disease: The Biology and Behavioral Basis for Smoking-Attributable Disease - NCBI Bookshelf


    Boiling point of Glycerine is 290C, PG is 188.2C

    So what the OP's friend is saying is that long after all the PG and VG has boiled away, the coil gets much much hotter, and there is still enough nicotine left over on the coil that could burn and cause problems, and that it is more dangerous than a cigarette (where virtually ALL the nicotine is burned at 700C)?

    Sorry, that's just not credible to me.
    THIS THIS THIS......

    How can something containing nicotine that is BURNED at nearly 1292 deg F(when taking a drag) be better than something containing nicotine that is VAPORIZED at 554 deg F(at most)?

    Seriously ask your friend that, i'm interested in the response/logic.
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    dalr-I think there is probably some degree of credibility to your friends research. It's definitely interesting and I like the different technique for testing. That said, since he is with BT, he may be a little one-sided. We all want to believe in the company we work for and tend to be loyal until completely disenfranchised by them. The main problem is that there is no long term study on vaping since it hasn't been around long enough for this. I truly believe that vaping manufacturers, especially in US-and probably Switzerland too-have a high degree of standards and truly want the best for their consumers. Your friend was honestly trying to look out for you but it boils down to how you feel. I'm feeling much better off analogs so I'll keep it up. After 20 more years or so ther may be more credible studies at the long-term effects. For now all we can do is continue to educate ourselves, pros and cons, and be proactive in our own lifestyles. Nobody is ever going to completely agree on this subject. I believe you are doing the right thing by keeping an open mind to both sides of studies. Make it a personal decision though on what feels right to you. Remember, it took centuries to realize the truth behind cigarettes. Everything in this world has some kind of harmful effect one way or another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalr View Post
    Look, I think you have me confused with someone else here. I came here to get a second opinion on what I had heard. It's definitely because I couldn't find any proof whatsoever of what I'd heard that I posted this. It's because I care about my health that I feel concerned and willing to explore all possibilities, not the least because extended research on the field is kinda thin. I can't see, in what I wrote, what may make you think I had any kind of proof when my very first message was about getting a second opinion.

    If there's no truth to what I heard, then fine! I'll be feeling much better about vaping.

    You can call me over-cautious, yes. Over-zealous in my quest for information, yes. But being called a troll? Really?
    I posted that I was quite confused by what your friend said and why. I am also just as confused by your apparent defensiveness. It seems to me that the contributors to this thread have provided some logical questions and/or answers to your dilemma on the feasibility of your friend's findings or advise. Actually, the questions and/or answers contributed are things that you, yourself, should be asking and may already be but remain silent about them. Right? Just as you have done and others here are doing... nothing wrong with questioning any information especially when it has the potential of impacting one's health whether that comes from you or these contributors. And since these are "new" here-to-fore unpublished findings by an unnamed company that can't even be researched, there can be no absolutely conclusive/scientific suggestions in disagreement with them that anyone can contribute. Thus, only questions and potential problem areas pertaining to the findings can be offered. And that has been done. In all, it seems to me that these thread contributors deserve the same "thank you" from you that you expect from them. Just sayin.
    Last edited by patkin; 10-29-2013 at 08:45 PM.
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    After thinking about this some more, has anyone realized that the information OP received from his friend directly tows the BT line regarding the design of their e-cigs.

    BT loves to state things along the lines of "All current e-cigs are inferior due to inconsistent delivery of nicotine, but OUR (BT) 'micro-processor controlled' (whatever that means) e-cigs eliminate this problem using some unnamed technology."

    *EDIT* Straight from RJ Reynolds Vapor (rjrvapor):

    VUSE is the world's most advanced E-Cigarette and the first E-Cigarette designed
    with Smart Technology. The VUSE Digital Vapor Cigarette contains a VaporDelivery
    Processor that uses algorithms in the same way a computer does, therefore we refer
    to it as "digital." VUSE is also the only E-Cigarette designed with a
    SmartMemory chip inside the cartridge. The VaporDelivery Processor working with
    the SmartMemory monitors and adjusts the power and heat delivered to the Cartridge
    up to 2,000 times a second, ensuring consistently satisfying puffs
    - A Perfect Puff,
    First Time, Every Time.
    Last edited by xtwosm0kesx; 10-29-2013 at 09:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CABBA View Post
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