Controversial suggestion: Lobelia Extract in E-Juice?

[Unperson]

IMPORTANT! THIS POST IS NOT FOR ANY OTHER PURPOSE THAN AN EXCHANGE OF THOUGHTS AND IDEAS. PLEASE DON'T ASSUME I'M ASKING PEOPLE TO PROCEED WITH AN UNTESTED ITEM.

Sorry, for some reason I felt compelled to start with that. Reason for this post? I dated a girl many years ago that was into herbal remedies, natural cures, and the like. She wanted me to quit smoking and suggested I try a folk remedy. Specifically, she told me to drink an 8 oz. glass of water with several drops of pure lobelia extract in it 3 or 4 times a day and that would help me kick the habit. I was daring back then so I gave it a try. The water definitely had a nicotine flavor to it, but it didn't get me to stop smoking.

I had forgotten about that incident until about 30 minutes ago. I wondered about the possible use of lobelia with vaping. Part of my reasoning was the possibility of it supplying a healthy nicotine taste. At the very least, I felt it warranted a little research. Here's what I've found so far...

From: Herbal Remedies

Lobelia is an expectorant, diaphoretic and anti-asthmatic. Lobelia stimulates the relaxation response when stressed, decreasing adrenaline and opening the lungs and chest.


This tincture can be used as a local application for sprains, bruises, or skin diseases.

Some authorities attach great value to Lobelia Extract as an expectorant in bronchitis, others as a valuable counterirritant when combined with other ingredients in ointment form. Lobelia is sometimes given in convulsive and inflammatory disorders such as epilepsy, tetanus, diphtheria and tonsilitis. There is also difference of opinion with regard to Lobelia's narcotic properties. Where relaxation of the system is required, as, for instance, to subdue spasm, Lobelia is invaluable. Relaxation can be counteracted by the stimulating and tonic infusion of capsicum. Lobelia may be used as an enema.

Lobelia has been used as an expectorant for bronchitis. It has also been used to lessen the effects of epilepsy, diphtheria, and tonsillitis. The oil has been a valuable resource in treating tetanus. Lobelia is a sedative. Externally, an infusion of Lobelia can be used to treat ophthalmic disorders, and the tincture is used as a topical for sprains, bruises, or skin diseases. It has been suggested that Lobelia may reduce cravings and nervousness associated with smoking withdrawal.
Suggested Dosage and Use: 5-20 drops in water or juice 2-3 times daily or as needed

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From Lobelia inflata (Wikipedia)

Cultivation and uses

Lobelia inflata has a long use as an entheogenic substance. The plant was widely used by the Penobscots and was widely used in the New England even before the time of Samuel Thomson who was credited as discovering it. Indian Tobacco is still used today. The most potent part of the plant is the seed as it contains the most lobeline, the main ingredient which gives the plant its pyschoactive property. It is sold widely in online herbal shops, and is prized among entheogen users. Its taste is reminiscent of real tobacco, acrid and burning, and it promotes the heavier flow of saliva. A common misconception is that when smoked it yields a euphoric "high" like feeling, when it actually produces a more relaxant like effect. It can be used fresh, or dry.

Lobelia inflata is also used by herbalists for treatment of asthma, hence its other nickname, asthma weed. Some make ointments of the plant to use externally.

It is also said that plant material is burned as a natural bug repellent to keep away insects such as mosquitoes.

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From: Good Herbal Health

Why Lobelia is Used to Quit Smoking

The remarkably effective Nicocure® patch utilizes the extracts from Lobelia inflata in order to help people quit smoking. Lobelia is, so far, the most widely-accepted medicinal plant used to address the smoking addiction.

People cannot quit smoking not because of a lack of intention, but because of the inability to deal with intoxication, addiction, and withdrawal symptoms. Some of them resort to nicotine gums in which the smoking is avoided but the nicotine addiction continues.

The good news is that there is now an effective way to quit smoking along with stopping the nicotine addiction. The product is called the Nicocure® patch, and this utilizes natural ingredients, the extracts of Lobelia inflata.

The Lobelia inflata is commonly known as Indian tobacco and it is abundantly cultivated in the Eastern parts of the United States. This medicinal plant can also be grown in other areas. The alkaloids found in the Lobelia extract are called piperidine alkaloids, which components are primarily lobeline, lobelanidine, lobelanine, and minor amounts of norlobelanine (also called isolobelanine), lelobanidine, lovinine, isolobinine, lobinanidine and other Chelidonic acid.

But how does the Lobelia help to effectively quit smoking? There are two major reasons:

1. The Lobelia inflata has lobeline, an alkaloid. It is an expectorant that can clear the passages of the lungs. Once the lungs are clean, the taste of cigarette and smoke becomes disagreeable. The smoker who is trying to quit will have the same irritated reaction of non-smokers to the smell of smoke . The smell of smoke will make him or her dizzy or nauseous. This is why the lobeline is known as a smoking deterrent and a stimulant.

2. The Lobelia inflata has isolobelanine, another alkaloid. It is known as a relaxant. That is, it makes the central and autonomic nervous system loosen up and ease the tension. This effect is useful for treating people with asthma and bronchitis. And it is also effective for calming the nerves of people who suffer withdrawal symptoms when they quit smoking. Together with lobeline, the isolobelanine help people effectively stop nicotine addiction.

The Lobelia extract has been found to be useful in treating other illnesses. It has been recommended for people with spasmodic asthma, whooping cough, spasmodic croup, membranous croup, infantile convulsions, hysterical convulsions, diphtheria, tonsillitis, and pneumonia.

The Lobelia-rich Nicocure® patch is convenient to use. One patch can be placed in a part of the body which is relatively free of hair, such as the inner arm. This patch stays for twenty-four hours, and then replaced by another. Of course, the next patch must be placed in a different position to allow the skin to “breathe”.

While a person is trying to quit smoking, he must help clean his body by drinking lots of water. If he feels a craving for tobacco or cigarette smoke, he may turn to eating citrus fruits. This craving gradually decreases and eventually disappears.

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Now, if lobelia is a good alternative for smoking, would it help in the transition to a pv? Note that it increases saliva production which may offset the fact that PG dries the mouth and throat and it is a relaxant.

Thoughts?

[bestthingever]

Interesting ! I'll be looking forward to what some of the more chemistry-oriented members here have to say.

[Kelemvor]

i came across this the time ruyan announced their new disposable Rapp. they use lobelia afaik in these. but i now nobody that tried one out already.

reading the whole wikipedia article makes me wonder if this will stay legal if its used in an e-cig or other drug delivery device. and at what mg of substance taken in we will start to vomit the whole day.

[Unperson]

i came across this the time ruyan announced their new disposable Rapp. they use lobelia afaik in these. but i now nobody that tried one out already.

reading the whole wikipedia article makes me wonder if this will stay legal if its used in an e-cig or other drug delivery device. and at what mg of substance taken in we will start to vomit the whole day.

The FDA didn't bash personal vaporizers because they had nicotine; well, provisionally. The used the nicotine aspect to fuel their "keep from kids" banter.

Nicotine is legal. So is using lobelia extract "and" lobelia is less restricted and easier to purchase.

As far as the possiblity for nausea, I know some people that feel nauseous from nicotine. Also, here's an excerpt from a study on lobelia:

Of the tincture, a teaspoonful given to an adult, will generally produce nausea, and sometimes vomiting. In certain instances, however, much larger doses have been given without producing any other effect than a flow of saliva.

[Unperson]

Here's an interesting read:

Lobelia: is lobelia toxic?

It's a long read, but you need to at least cull through enough for the following summary to make sense:

Summary

In conclusion, no credible evidence of lobelia toxicity or any adverse effect more serious than vomiting is present in the medical literature of the past two centuries. Twentieth century literature that alleges lobelia toxicity provides no primary references or alleged least toxic dose. Modern allegations appear to be parroted uncritically from early nineteenth century sources. Nineteenth century literature presents only two cases of successful legal prosecution of herbalists in connection with deaths alleged to be due to lobelia. On the other hand, another case in North America and at least twelve court cases in England resulted in acquittal of the herbalist. Only a single case occurs in the literature – that of Ezra Lovett in 1808 – where details of alleged dose and supposed toxic symptoms appear. The practitioner (Samuel Thomson) was acquitted in that case, and, when given an opportunity in a later court case, presented witnesses rebutting the prosecution testimony in the trial. Much larger doses than the one alleged to have killed Thomson were subsequently used in medical practice with no ill-effects. The nineteenth-century literature is divided between medical practitioners who used lobelia regularly and in large doses, and those who used is hardly at all. The unanimous consensus of those who actually used it in practice is that it is a harmless agent without potential for toxicity beyond its nauseating effects. Supporting this view is the twentieth century use of lobelia hydrochloride in large intramuscular, subcutaneous, and intravenous doses through the 1970s, and the non-prescription use of oral doses of lobeline sulfate as recently as 1990.

[Skully7780]

"another case in North America and at least twelve court cases in England resulted in acquittal of the herbalist"

whoh whoh whoh, 12 cases? Im not using ANY herbs ever!

[Unperson]

"another case in North America and at least twelve court cases in England resulted in acquittal of the herbalist"

whoh whoh whoh, 12 cases? Im not using ANY herbs ever!

You didn't read the full story. The reasons lobelia is listed as toxic are dubious and many agencies (including.. .."surprise".. ..the FDA) are basing their results and untested reports from the 19th century. Read the FULL story, then the individual comments in the summary will make sense.

[Unperson]

Hmm...

RUYAN AMERICA LAUNCHES E-MYSTICK® RAPP®

...the Ruyan RAPP E-Mystick, a patent applied for Respiratory Amplifier Personal and Portable, containing the recognized herbal remedy and dietary supplement lobelia and marketed exclusively to smoking adults as a tonic.

The RAPP E-Mystick is designed for smokers who want the look, feel and experience of a cigarette. It contains the active ingredient lobelia, also known as "Indian Tobacco", an herbal remedy/dietary supplement; well known and often described as a respiratory tonic. The product uses miniature technology and a convenient, personal, portable and disposable herbal vaporizer that produces an ingestible, pleasantly flavored mist. The product provides smokers quick and effective relief for a number of conditions commonly attributed to tobacco use. The product is neither a tobacco product nor a drug product and is classified as a dietary supplement. It is not intended to be used for smoking cessation. The product is formulated and assembled in the United States, using the finest and purest ingredients available domestically.

LOL, it's a disposable:

Ruyan America RAPP E-Mystick

[Madame Psychosis]

I looked into lobelia about a year ago, long before I found out about PVs, and came up with some interesting information, but I'm afraid it's not positive in tone.

Memorial Sloan Kettering has a page on lobelia with additional information on its mechanism of action and recent laboratory study of adverse reactions, and references from the 1990s to the major 2002 Cochrane review on lobelia for smoking cessation. No 19th century references.

(The toxicity reference is from a 1999 book, no link available on the page. But honestly, looking at the pharmacology, the potential expressions of toxicity make sense.)
From MSK:

Clinical Summary
Derived from the aerial parts of the plant. Patients use this supplement for smoking cessation and to treat asthma and depression. The piperidine alkaloids (e.g. lobeline) are thought responsible for the activity of this botanical. Animal and in vitro studies show that lobeline crosses the blood-brain barrier, has similar activity to nicotine, and stimulates the release of dopamine and norepinephrine (5). At low doses lobelia has stimulant effects, but higher doses result in CNS depression. Significant toxicity has occurred following use including vomiting, seizures, cardiovascular collapse, and coma (2). Lobelia may have additive toxicity when combined with nicotine (12). Clinical studies evaluating lobelia for smoking cessation do not support its use (15). Patients should be warned not to use this supplement.
[...]
Mechanism of Action
Animal studies report that lobeline has anxiolytic and cardiovascular effects and increases cognitive performance. Lobelia has central stimulant activity, dilates bronchioles, and increases respiration rate at low doses, but higher doses cause CNS and respiratory depression (10). In rat and mouse models lobeline increases dopamine release from striatal synaptosomes, increases norepinephrine release from the hippocampus (5), and binds extensively to nicotinic receptors both centrally and peripherally (4). In vitro, lobeline redistributes dopamine pools in presynaptic vesicles and antagonizes their release following amphetamine stimulation. Lobeline can have both antagonistic and synergistic effects when combined with nicotine and does not induce receptor up-regulation as seen with nicotine (10). Intravenous administration of approximately 12 mcg/kg lobeline to healthy human subjects resulted in cough, apnea, prolonged inspiration and expiratory pause, the feeling of choking, and pressure in the throat and chest (9). Animal studies suggest that beta-amyrin palmitate stimulates the release of norepinephrine in the brain, possibly leading to an antidepressant effect (1).
[...]
Adverse Reactions
Reported: Nausea, vomiting, sweating, cough, dizziness, bradycardia, hypertension, seizures, respiratory stimulation (low doses) or depression (high doses).
Toxicity: Sinus arrhythmia, bundle branch block, diaphoresis, cardiovascular collapse, seizures, coma.
[...]
Herb-Drug Interactions
Nicotine: Lobelia may have additive effects when combined with nicotine-containing products, resulting in toxicity.
[...]
Stead LF, Hughes JR. Lobeline for smoking cessation. Cochrane Database Syst Rev 2002;(2):CD000124.
Although 16 studies have been performed evaluating lobelia for smoking cessation, none met inclusion criteria set by Stead and Hughes. Trials evaluated only short-term efficacy (up to 14 days) of lobelia use with no long-term follow-up performed. Reduction in number of cigarettes, not abstinence, was the primary outcome for a majority of the studies reviewed. No evidence supports the hypothesis that lobelia is effective for smoking cessation.

(A just-published multi-center study of lobelia for smoking cessation came to the same conclusion.)

It's an interesting compound for laboratory study (I saw one recent abstract on lobeline's activity on drug-resistant breast cancer cells in vitro), but it would not have the effect we desire.

While it seems to act on somewhat similar receptors as nicotine, it has broader effects and individual response/sensitivity is uncertain.

On the traditional medicine side of things... the handful of herbalists I know do not choose to work with lobelia. The only application for which they've mentioned it, when I asked, was as an alternative to ipecac in an emergency. Some lobelia tea will apparently make you throw up anything bad you've swallowed.

[Unperson]

I looked into lobelia about a year ago, long before I found out about PVs, and came up with some interesting information, but I'm afraid it's not positive in tone.

Memorial Sloan Kettering has a page on lobelia with additional information on its mechanism of action and recent laboratory study of adverse reactions, and references from the 1990s to the major 2002 Cochrane review on lobelia for smoking cessation. No 19th century references.

(The toxicity reference is from a 1999 book, no link available on the page. But honestly, looking at the pharmacology, the potential expressions of toxicity make sense.)
From MSK:

(A just-published multi-center study of lobelia for smoking cessation came to the same conclusion.)

It's an interesting compound for laboratory study (I saw one recent abstract on lobeline's activity on drug-resistant breast cancer cells in vitro), but it would not have the effect we desire.

While it seems to act on somewhat similar receptors as nicotine, it has broader effects and individual response/sensitivity is uncertain.

On the traditional medicine side of things... the handful of herbalists I know do not choose to work with lobelia. The only application for which they've mentioned it, when I asked, was as an alternative to ipecac in an emergency. Some lobelia tea will apparently make you throw up anything bad you've swallowed.

Not disputing what you cited, and I greatly appreciate the time and effort in your reply, but most of that is based on large consumption, correct? Everyone agrees that nicotine is a harmful toxin and is fatal if even a couple of drops of pure nicotine gets on your skin. I'd argue the given equal doses of each, nicotine would kill you, lobelia would make you a great stand-in for Linda Blair. Yet nicotine is still used by a marority of pv users.

Still, your cautionary advice is noted.