Using mixed herbal infusion tea, to reduce nicotine fixation ?

[exogenesis]

A pint (or 2) of strong infusion per day has me needing far less nicotine (and food),
and leaves me feeling generally mildly serene and calm, all for several hours after the drink.


I recently sort of accidentally got a set of dried 'herbs' meant for making herbal tea,
from a specialist on-line supplier, pretty cheap, lots of suppliers available.

Thought I might as well see what it tasted like, not expecting any effect whatsoever,
cos I don't believe in alternative medicines like homeopathy, herbal or possibly even acupuncture etc.


Can anyone else confirm this effect ?


1 pint tea =
1 teabag of standard tea (1)
2 teaspoons passion-flower (2)
2 teaspoons peppermint (3)
1 teaspoons skullcap (4)
1 or 2 teaspoons valerian (5)
1 teaspoons rhodiala (6)
2 or 3 large teaspoons of 'complete' honey (the cloudy stuff)
Some of milk.


Easy to do in a large 'herb-bag' tea-bag as sold by suppliers,
stewed for as long as possible in the 1 pint mug (before adding honey & milk obviously),
i.e. around 10 mins, with gentle squishing & stirring.


(1) PG tips for me (caffeine, eek)
(2) passiflora incarnata (for harmaline, harmine = MAOIs) - anti-anxiety
(3) mentha piperita (for taste) - digestive settler / aid (apparently)
(4) scutellaria latiflora (GABA :scutellein, baicalin = flavinoid) - mild sedative
(5) valeriana officinalis (alkaloids : actinidine, catinie, valerine +
GABAs?? + isovaltrate [sedative], valeric acid [mood stabiliser]) - anti-anxiety
(6) rhodiola rosea (glycosides + MOAIs ?: rosarin, rosin, salidroside) - stess relief, anti-depressant

Never felt so calm & in control of my nicotine habit (and appetite),
just goes to show : no expectations = very pleasant surprise when it works (so far).
Don't know if it'll last.

Don't actually feel I 'need' any medications of any of the above descriptions,
I think some on this forum do, in fact may be the main reason for their heavy nictoine intake (?)

Also going to add St John's Wort (capsules) - anti depressant, SSRI (hypercin in the hypericum perforatum mixture).


edit:
seems to be getting better, nicotine intake down by factor of at least 2,
at this rate might get to be less 'nicotine tolerant' & use it for recreation rather than need.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Heavy nicotine intaker here......So is it still workin' for ya, exo? Though you know my high regard for homeopathy, Ianan tried this route in the "Are we getting it..." thread, albeit a couple of different recipes, and generally didn't seem too helpful for him. I do hope all is well. Please update when ya can .

[exogenesis]

Yes, still working pretty well TV, definately reduced nic. intake, eating less,
feeling healthier and happier & less tense generally.

I think Ianan was trying for adding back in the 'what's missing' from using just nicotine,
I remember reading his tests & thinking nah, that'll never work for me - too 'alternative'.

I'm mainly snus-ing so nothings really 'missing' as such,
just getting a laugh out of this herb tea effect.


Probably going OCD on this cos extended the mix range to include
chamomile, bilberry, lemon-balm, devil-claw, cat-claw, yarrow, spearmint,
vervain & sage (won't post all the active ingredients).

Keeping ginseng, fever-few, gotu-kola, guarana & mate-tea on one side,
possible stimulants that clash with the others a bit.

Knocking back on the strength & amount though, cos I've heard rumours,
particularly about Valerian, don't wany to replace one addiction with another.

Got a bottle of 5HTP pills though - kin' expensive things.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Good to hear. So I take it no smokes?? Yeah, I've heard about the Valerian, not sure it's still available here. I tried the 5HTP pills and didn't really do much. Dose may have been too low, donno. I was sure in the pits back then though, so it wouldn't surprise me. Well, be sure to post results of your modified brew as well as snus usage (like you wouldn't track something ). This is interesting stuff .

[Debbie]

Have you tried Melatonin?

Debbie

[Madame Psychosis]

I believe (as I imagine you do too) in science-based medicine - a way of thinking and questioning based on plausibility and evidence - and unlike some alt-med modalities, herbs can have plausible mechanisms of action. So I don't think it's incompatible with your skepticism that you're getting an effect from your cuppa psychoactives. Glad to hear it's working so well!

A few of the herbs you mention have some clinical studies on their effectiveness as anti-anxiety medicines -- your supposedly shotgun approach actually winds up looking a bit more targeted than Ianan's. There are a few studies on MAOIs in smoking cessation so your addition of passionflower intrigues me.

I've got an herbalist in the family so I've been a guinea pig for a few of these - though mostly before I became a smoker, and rarely to any useful effect. I haven't tried passionflower but it's interesting b/c of the harmala alkaloids. Valerian and skullcap were a bit sedating. Rhodiola didn't have any effect. 300-400mg/day of 5-HTP for two months did nothing. (But I have it on good evidence that my brain often requires a battering ram where others respond to a knock on the door...)

In the interests of science you could try eliminating one by one and see how it changes the outcome. May find one or two that are mainly responsible for what you're feeling.

Just notes/thoughts/cautions in case you haven't run across them...
(Apologies if any of this runs into things you already read up on, exo - sounds like you've done research as well. Thought a few cautions might be useful to anyone considering these supplements too.)

Whatever you do, don't take 5-HTP and St. John's Wort together in therapeutic doses. You would be mixing a serotonin precursor with a serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It's like stopping up the bathtub drain and turning the faucet to full blast -- and the resulting overflow is Serotonin Syndrome, described by one unlucky friend as the "worst day of your life". (Wiki article here.) It's hard to predict where one individual's threshold will be for SS, but one general rule in psychopharmacology is never mix serotonin reuptake inhibitors, monoamine oxidase-A* inhibitors, and serotonin precursors with each other in any combination.

(Is there a risk to combining 5-HTP or SJW with passionflower's MAOIs? Dunno. The beta-carbolines like harmaline have some important differences in their action from the pharma MAOIs that make them a less potent interaction risk...it would seem to me. Countless people have safely taken SSRIs, for instance, while smoking and getting MAO inhibition from the beta-carbolines in tobacco. I imagine it's also a matter of dosage.)

I found this an interesting post about the clinical data on St. John's Wort. Never tried it, but it sounds like for mild mood issues it's certainly worth a try. (The only issues are finding a quality formulation in an unregulated market - a problem with all herbal medicines - and that SJW can cause a lot of liver-based drug interactions because it induces CYP3A4, an enzyme responsible for a lot of drugs' metabolism. So it'll reduce the effective dosage of many prescription drugs. But if you're not on any other medications the latter isn't a problem.)

5-HTP...is an odd supplement. Like I said, it had no effect on me. It does cross the blood-brain barrier but there are no high-quality clinical trials on it for anything. Yet I've certainly heard anecdotes from people who say it works for sleep and mood.
The idea of precursor loading (like 5-HTP or tryptophan for serotonin) seems to get some eye-rolling from medical professionals.
(In the past couple of years I've asked two acquaintances - a neuroscientist PhD/MD and a psychiatrist - about the usefulness of monoamine precursors like 5-HTP, and got the same screwy look each time.)
Their skepticism was partly because of the poor clinical evidence, and largely because of the general concept that the body is good at keeping homeostasis & regulating things like serotonin levels within a certain range. That is, you'd mostly excrete the extra "raw materials". Antidepressants go straight to that regulating mechanism (the 5-HT transporter or receptors) and tweak it for their effect.
(It's adding the two together -- taking extra precursors plus antidepressants that mess up the ability to eliminate/reuptake excess serotonin -- that gets dangerous.)

5-HTP is quite cheap in the States. It's SAM-e that I found very expensive (and actually rather effective on mood and energy, unlike some other pricey supps) when I was experimenting with these remedies.

Do keep us updated on your experiences.

(*To clarify: MAO-A is the MAO subtype that binds to serotonin, among other things - hence the specific concern with MAO-A inhibition here in terms of Serotonin Syndrome. One of the ways MAOIs can vary is in which subtype of MAO they bind to and inhibit. Harmaline is selective for MAO-A, for instance.

(I have nothing useful to contribute to the interesting and enlightening make-your-own-snus or grow-your-own-tobacco threads, so I might as well overdo it here, right? )

[exogenesis]

"mainly snus-ing" TV, meaning still having a few smokes a day, as I was without the herb tea,
the main nic. reduction is frequency of 'need' for realtively frequent nic-kick with thunder snus.

Maybe the 100mg 5HTP tabs were a waste of money then (for this use), but haven't tried yet.

Trying to put together a realistic list of possible infusion contents, using Dr Dukes database & others
Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases
but it's flippin complicated & there's almost too much info available around,
traditional stuff, annecdotal effects, medical, synergistic effects....

Melatonin, mainly an animal derivative Debbie ?, could put some brain tissue in the tea I guess ,
are you suggesting it cos you've read/heard/know of good experience with it ?
Looking around, it seems potent stuff, 0.3mg tabs seem to be the norm. for sleep disorders/antidepressive & other stuff.



Very thorough post as usual MP, I think your posts consistently have the greatest info content of any posts.

Thanks for the heads-up on the 5HTP & SSRIs in St John's Wort, was generally ware of that,
but could easily have casually taken a pill of each during this exploration,
probably in the rush to go to work one morning.
FeverFew maybe has serotonin release inhibition effects as well.
Not taking any prescription drugs, so no interference there.

Interesting SJW article, for me the 333 mg SJW 'extract' pills didn't have any extra striking effect over a few days,
but then I'm not (usually) prone to depression as such, & I'm slurping the brew at the same time anyway.

I'm reckoning (getting?) synergistic effects with the combinations, particularly PassionFlower & Valerian,
(and tea), possibly some of the others as well, possibly potentially with LemonBalm, and maybe the other
antianxiolystic/sedative ones skullcap, rodiola, devilsclaw.

I'd like to do a systematic testing approach, i.e. individual herbs, then combinations, trouble is
it'd all be very subjective & affected by external effects (amount of sleep, work stress, alcohol intake,
social stuff, weather, exercise etc etc), so would be somewhat difficult to correlate.
Maybe taking one formulation for a couple of weeks or months at a time might yield something useful?

SAM-e, will look out for that one, that's a sythesised pharmacuetical rather than natural occuring (in plants) ?

Certainly going to keep this up, just spent £100 on herb stock, and another £100+ on various 'infusion' equipment
(heated teapots, glass kettles, infuser cups etc) to get a convenient daily system going.

I think wherever you post you contribute usefully MP, this post was deliberately put in the back waters,
surprised anyone found it really
.
.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I'd like to do a systematic testing approach, i.e. individual herbs, then combinations, trouble is
it'd all be very subjective & affected by external effects (amount of sleep, work stress, alcohol intake,
social stuff, weather, exercise etc etc), so would be somewhat difficult to correlate.
Maybe taking one formulation for a couple of weeks or months at a time might yield something useful?

You're apparently a much more patient man than me, exo. I think time is a fairly large factor in finding success. I've found some things have to be in my system for 30 days or more before benefits are realized. Then there's the associated environmental effects . Smokes were sooo simple to use, and with predictable results! Good luck on this journey. You and Madame do make a good team and hopefully will have much correspondence. I'll sit back and observe .

[exogenesis]

Formulation steadying out at:

Using the below heaped teaspoons for 1 pint of herbal 'tea':

Passion Flower 2 or 3
Peppermint 1 or 2
Spearmint 1
Chamomile 2 or 3
Bilberries (ground) 0.5
Lemon Balm 1 or 2

honey & milk


Leaving out the root herbs like rhodiola, valerian cos too bitter, also leaving out
vervain, skullcap, yarrow, catsclaw, devilsclaw, feverfew, st johns wort
cos one of those gave me a bad reaction with alcohol.

Alcohol consumption down by a factor of 4, nicotine by at least 2 or 3,
food intake still reduced, sleeping very well (maybe not as deep as with the valerian included),
life is definately smoother (and cheaper).

Hope this keeps up & my body doesn't just re-adjust.

[AntoinRse14]

It is possible to quit smoking with the use of the means that nature gives us. People have discovered that some herbs reduce nicotine addiction while others lower the urge to smoke in general. The use of the herb during the period of quitting helps fighting withdrawal symptoms.

Herbs such as Lobelia, St. John Wort, and Valerian have been helpful in quitting smoking. A combination of orange juice and cream of tartar is said to help flush nicotine from your system, thereby reducing your cravings for it. Your cravings should subside more each day as more nicotine is flushed from your body. Mix one half teaspoon of cream of tartar (found in the spice section of your local grocery) in a glass of orange juice, and drink it right before bed each night.

Some natural substances can actually create a taste in your mouth which lessens your desire for a cigarette. When you find yourself wanting to smoke, try putting a drop of clove oil on your finger and applying it to the back of your tongue. (Clove oil can be found at most health food stores.)