So in theory...

[eHuman]

When someone says, "If you can't afford an HV mod, than LR attys which "simulate" HV vaping is your next best option." <This statement would by default presume that HV vaping is the superior option.

But am I correct in assuming that the voltage we vape at is irrelevant? We are just looking for a higher current by using a higher voltage with the same atty?

a. Vaping at 6v with a 4Ω atty = 1.5a (1500mA) 9 watts
b. Vaping at 4.5v with a 3Ω atty = 1.5a (1500mA) 6.75 watts
c. Vaping at 3v with a 2Ω atty = 1.5a (1500mA) 4.5 watts

In the example above, a higher voltage source with a "standard" atty would give the same amperage as a lower voltage source with an LR atty but it would consume more power in order to do it.

Are we really just discussing two different methods of achieving the identical desired results? On the surface it looks like the higher voltage mod is just consuming more power to achieve the same results.

Are all three attys in the example expected to last the same amount of time given an identical cycle environment?

Will a single battery/LR atty give a similar VV experience to a double battery/HR atty?

I guess what I'm coming down to is that it would be less expensive to build a a lower voltage device (1/2 the batteries), so is there something I'm not considering that make higher voltage more advantageous?

I can picture how small and robust of a VVV I could make using an LR atty and a 2600mA batt.


ADDED: I should have used this as an example above but no matter:
a. Vaping at 7v with a 3.8Ω atty = 2.33a (2330mA) 16.3 watts
b. Vaping at 5v with a 3.8Ω atty = 1.31a (1310mA) 6.58 watts
c. Vaping at 3v with a 3.8Ω atty = .79a (790mA) 2.37 watts
The wattage increases expotentially as the voltage does linearly. But I think I'm concerned with amps.

[AttyPops]

Well, I'm no expert, but since nobody answered yet I'll give it the 1st shot:

It's the POWER (AKA Watts) that counts... your right hand column. Not the amps alone, nor the volts alone. BUUUUTTTT ... the LR atty is designed to produce heat with less resistance (thicker wire, double wire, whatever???), so the amps go up as the resistance is reduced, producing more watts of power dissipation. The higher voltage "push" more through a standard atty and that's why everyone loves em. Also, 1/2 the batteries reduces the current "drain" ... available amperage.

[WillyB]

When someone says, "If you can't afford an HV mod, than LR attys which "simulate" HV vaping is your next best option." <This statement would by default presume that HV vaping is the superior option.

Doesn't seem to 'presume' that to me. Seems to address a preference that some folks have. HV vaping increases the WATTS (Power = heat, throat hit). If you want more WATTS using a lower ohm atty is another option.

But am I correct in assuming that the voltage we vape at is irrelevant? We are just looking for a higher current by using a higher voltage with the same atty?

Most gauge the vaping experience by the WATTS produced. Many folks are looking for higher/more Power (WATTS). If folks like 9W vaping that can achieved with a 1.5Ω atty @ 2.5A. To get that we need 3.8V. A Joye 510 needs about 2A for 9W. To do that we need 4.4V. Seems voltage is quite relevant and an integral part of the equation. Power is the amount of current times the voltage measured in WATTS.

Are we really just discussing two different methods of achieving the identical desired results? On the surface it looks like the higher voltage mod is just consuming more power to achieve the same results.

It's best to understand and use the correct terminology. Using the same atty to increase the Power (WATTS) we need to increase the voltage, which will then increase the Current. That should theoretically shorten run times, but most 5+ second hitters find themselves taking shorter hits as the WATTS increase.

Theoretically Vaping at 9W should be the same no matter how you get there, but with the vast array of atties and construction, standard, LR, HV and those who make them it's never that simple as to what combo suits folks.

Lots and lots of posts on these forums regarding the preferences and opinions of either approach.

[roadrash]

to add to the conundrum of vvv. You have a ton of different juice mixes and during the day you want different hits. Every time I have the perfect set up I look for something else. I have 2 vvs and 2 boosters and some original 510 standard bats and I use most of them during a day. I even tried a cart yesterday to see if it still worked the same. So I say you can never have enough of lv, hv, cartos or whatever. Personal preference and different strokes n all. :>)

[eHuman]

Let me throw up a disclaimer: I don't want anyone to take me as being argumentative. I am going to counter some statements with my understanding (which is the reason for the questions in the 1st place). I think many people don't understand WHY they get better performance at higher voltage, they just understand that they do.

Doesn't seem to 'presume' that to me. Seems to address a preference that some folks have.

To me this preference is likened to driving 60 in a porche over driving 60 in a vw. You "can" go faster in the one but if you don't intend to then that preference will merely cost you more to do the same thing as the other cheaper alternative. (It would be different if the preference was for the maximum speed potential, the porche and the higher PV both have greater potential).

HV vaping increases the WATTS (Power = heat, throat hit).

HP vaping increases CURRENT which increases watts consumed, (Higherer current is responsible for greater TH.
HP vaping at the same current increases the power consumed (not produced) in order to perform at the same level.

If you want more WATTS using a lower ohm atty is another option.

This is where I believe there is a flaw. (The terms "current" and "power" are mistakingly being interchanged). To restate that, If you want more current then the only 2 options are higher voltage OR lower resistance, either will get you there.

If you want more current (without adjusting voltage) then using a lower ohm atty is the method. Current is what produces the heat we are looking for not wattage. Wattage is the amount of energy required to produce that heat.

Most gauge the vaping experience by the WATTS produced.

That's why I'm asking. (Watts aren't produced, they are consumed). I understand that is the perspective but it is flawed. it is higher current that changes the quality/quantity of the vaping experience.

Many folks are looking for higher/more Power (WATTS).

I think it is more heat they are looking for to the atty which comes from higher current.

If folks like 9W vaping that can achieved with a 1.5Ω atty @ 2.5A. To get that we need 3.8V. A Joye 510 needs about 2A for 9W. To do that we need 4.4V. Seems voltage is quite relevant and an integral part of the equation. Power is the amount of current times the voltage measured in WATTS.

I agree that voltage is relevant. It is the easiest thing to adjust. Variable power supplies are common, variable inductance coils don't exist. We are on the same page here but because of differing understanding. Variable voltage is what I'm looking for with reason.

It's best to understand and use the correct terminology.

I agree

Using the same atty to increase the Power (WATTS) we need to increase the voltage, which will then increase the Current. That should theoretically shorten run times, but most 5+ second hitters find themselves taking shorter hits as the WATTS increase.

Flawed premise, correct conclusion. An increase in voltage will produce a higher amperage and the energy require to do so will increase as a result (watts).

This can be displayed by a phenomena that you do see and agree with. If I take two 3.7v 1200mAh batteries and:

Wire in series: (2s1p = 3.7v 2400mAh) Then discharge them at a rate of 1.2 amps (1200mA) then the batteries will last two hours. 3.083 ohm load using 4.44 watts to do it.

Wire them in parallel: (1s2p = 7.4v 1200mAh) Then discharge them at a rate of 1.2 amps (1200mA) then the batteries will last one hour. 6.16 ohm load using 8.88 watts to do it.

The higher voltage battery/same amperage configuration consumes twice the power in order to perform the same task. < That's what is behind my OP. A higher voltage/same atty = higher current confiration is responsible for the shorter run time and greater throat hit, less hit needed for satisfaction. That you cannot engineer around, you pay for what you get (power potencial for performance)

Theoretically Vaping at 9W should be the same no matter how you get there,

I don't agree at all.
1. Vaping at 24v with a 64Ω atty = .375A and 9 watts
2. Vaping at 12v with a 16Ω atty = .75A and 9 watts
3. Vaping at 8v with a 7.1Ω atty = 1.125A and 9 watts
4. Vaping at 4v with a 1.7Ω atty = 2.35A and 9 watts
5. Vaping at 2v with a .4Ω atty = 4.5A and 9 watts

All of the examples consume 9 watts (and let's say we use the same gauge nichrome wire to make all the attys, just vary the length in order to achieve our needed resistances).
#1 might not get an atty warm, #5 will burn an atty up, and the rest are scaled in between. (Component failure warnings are based on Amperage and it doesn't matter how you get there, amperage = heat. Power supplies have a maximum wattage that they can be operated at because by design they can only produce a fixed maximum amount of energy)

It is not until you find the amperage range that a given atty (fixed resistor) performs well at (by increasing voltage) can you say, "Theoretically Vaping at 1.5A should be the same no matter how you get there, the only variables that can be manipulated are resistance and voltage, but the wattage will ALWAYS be different.

it's never that simple as to what combo suits folks.

This is very true, but how we get to that quantitative level once it is known for each person is an exact science.

Which brings me to clarify my post. I can build a 1000v device that will perform the same as a stock 3.7v battery as long as the components that I use are rated for the higher wattage required to do so and I will by default consume more power in the process.

The typical range that a 2 battery (7.4v 1200mAh) VV setup can achieve using a 3.9Ω atty is roughly 1.28 - 1.92 Amps. (5v cut-off)

The typical range that a 1 battery 3.7v 1200mAh) VV setup can achieve using a 1.9Ω atty is roughly 1.31-1.952 Amps. (2.5v cut-off)

Both of these devices should perform identically for the same duration. Packaging size and price is the difference.

My understanding as to why an LR atty burns out quicker is due to higher current that eventually overcomes the power rating of the wire. If a smaller gauge nichrome wire is used to achieve the lower resistance rating while keeping the atty coil the same length than the power rating of the atty would logically decrease, also contributing to early failure. But if the same guage wire is used to make a shorter but lower resistance atty then it would be able to withstand a higher amperage than the smaller wire.

What I am looking for is a flaw in my understanding of electronics with using an LR atty and a single cell batt to achieve the same thing that the HV modders are getting.

-roadrash, I understand the variables presented by different juices, that's why I don't just make a fixed mod with 1 cell and an LR atty. I agree that variable voltage is the most convenient answer to varying current in order to customize the TH/vapor/flavor experience.

One problem that I see is that you can only practically lower the resistance of an atty so far accurately, while you can vary voltage infinitely. And that only if you build one yourself, they only come stock just under 2Ω to my knowledge.

I know this may sound pointed or argumentative, but please don't take it personal, it's just how I logically sift through information. My logic tell me that there is nothing wrong with this idea, but the fact that noone else haas come up with it tells me that there's something i'm missing maybe. I just don't think it's the wattage issue.

[Mattco]

...Well...there's a lot there that confused me. I'm going to throw Ohm's Law out here for that somebody who gets confuddled with how those numbers were reached:
I=E/R (I=amps, E=Volts, R=Resistance)
And you can calculate the watts by
"Watts=Volts X Amps"...or "Watts=VoltsXVolts (AKA squared)/resistance".

The volts and resistance are mainly fixed values that can be exchanged with other volts or resistances to get the right amount of amps or watts (heat output). And it depends on personal preferences (vapor, throat hit, ect...) and the juice variable (if it likes to burn hotter or cooler for the right amount of flavor, vapor, ect...).

From what I understand, eHuman, I totally agree with your logic. I find the math to be a little off though...
"1. Vaping at 24v with a 64Ω atty = .375A and 9 watts
2. Vaping at 12v with a 16Ω atty = .75A and 9 watts
3. Vaping at 8v with a 7.1Ω atty = 1.125A and 9 watts
4. Vaping at 4v with a 1.7Ω atty = 2.35A and 9 watts (I got 9.4)
5. Vaping at 2v with a .4Ω atty = 4.5A and 9 watts (5A and 10 watts)
...I know, I'm splitting hairs, sorry...

My understanding as to why an LR atty burns out quicker is due to higher current that eventually overcomes the power rating of the wire. If a smaller gauge nichrome wire is used to achieve the lower resistance rating while keeping the atty coil the same length than the power rating of the atty would logically decrease, also contributing to early failure. But if the same guage wire is used to make a shorter but lower resistance atty then it would be able to withstand a higher amperage than the smaller wire.

From what I understand, this is like a fuse. I don't understand why shortening the wire would enable a higher amperage. I think it has to do with the diameter of the wire. If it's 10ft or .01 inches, it will still only be able to handle a certain amperage before it burns out. And lengthening the wire itself would create a higher resistance, so it could handle a higher voltage, but it'll still hit that magic amperage level and break. But maybe I'm just stupid...don't know.

But this totally explains why people normally talk about watts. I didn't understand that before. And I think I just learned that amperage is important too because that can give you some indication of the life of your atty or carto. So in theory, a low amp rating with the correct amount of watts for your personal preference of vaping experience and flavor would be ideal. Or am I missing something? The lower the voltage, the higher the amperage and the quicker your atty or carto is going to burn up...because the metal in the wire itself can only handle so much heat with that much current. You could take short puffs on a .4ohm atty and not have any issue. Heat it up for as long as you would with a 24volt system and it'd die...I think there's something else in my head about electrolysis and the degradation of wire. If the wire isn't insulated, electrons escaping from the wire by other conductors (air, moisture, whatever) will eventually erode the wire (making a smaller diameter wire smaller and having less amperage capability)...does this sound correct? I know I'm missing something too, and I wish somebody would say what it is...

[Mattco]

To clarify...I think watts is more of a measurement of energy released. So yes, 9 watts is 9 watts and heat your juice the same no matter what voltage and resistance you use to get there. Higher amperage will get it hotter faster. The amperage rating is what's going to burn things up which makes a HV system more ideal and in theory will last longer. And HV will have a more immediate of a reaction when you hit the button. The 2V .4ohm used as the example would take a much longer time to heat up.

[eHuman]

OK we agree on some but not all. Good catch on the math, may have been a copy paste function because I didn't like my 1st example.

From what I understand, this is like a fuse. I don't understand why shortening the wire would enable a higher amperage.

(ADDING THIS AFTER THE FACT) I thought I read shorting, thus the original response, but you said shortening, lol sorry. Shortening a wire will have no practical advantage or disadvantage (unless you meant the atty wire or coil)

Look at the first formula you pasted of ohms law I=E/R. When you short a wire you decrease it's resistance to a theoretical zero ohms (depending on the purity of the shorting material). If "E" stays the same but "R" decreases then I will increase.

The only place that wire diameter comes into play is in how much current can flow safely before it burns up the material (a short will cause an open). Wire is rated by voltage and Amperage maximums. A 10' thick wire and a 1/64th" thick wire should both have a resistance of zero ohms.

One thing to consider about wattage:
When you see a wattage rating on a power supply, it is referring to the maximum watts that the device can produce safely. A power supply or battery doesn't consume watts, it produces them.

When you see a wattage rating on an electrical device, it is referring to to the maximum watts that the device will require in order to operate safely. A radio or and e-cig does not produce watts, it consumes them. Often a wattage rating is not found on an electrical device, an amperage rating is because that is what is importance to the safe operation of device itself

If your power supply is rated at 12vdc 500watts, and your load is rated at 12vdc 200 watts, then you can safely run 2 of these loads on the same power supply. A third one will attempt to draw 600 watts from the source, overheating it and causing a power source failure.

On that same power supply If you place a load that is rated to be operated by 3v 50 watts then the voltage being 4x that of the engineered value will likely cause too much current and fry the load. (I=E/R, R remained constant, E increased, I must increase, which increases P or watts, but not enough to overload the power supply, just current increase enough to fry the electrical load).

So in theory, a low amp rating with the correct amount of watts for your personal preference of vaping experience and flavor would be ideal. Or am I missing something?

If I'm correct then I think what you are missing is that the wattage is irrelevant. At a given amp rating no matter how many watts are required to achieve it, the vape experience should be identical. Example:
4v battery 2Ω atty (2amp) (8 watts)
8v battery 4Ω atty (2Amp) (16 watts)
It only takes twice as much power in the 8v (2 battery) example because you are simultaneously performing the same thing with both batteries. You are using 8 watts per battery in either case in order to achieve a 2Amp rating which is what heats our atty (the amperage not the wattage)

The lower the voltage, the higher the amperage and the quicker your atty or carto is going to burn up...

Just the opposite. Lets keep the same load (atty) but vary the voltage:
8v battery 4Ω atty (2Amp) (16 watts)
4v battery 4Ω atty (1amp) (4 watts)
If R is constant then E and I are directly proportional, (voltage goes up/current goes up. voltage drops/current drops).
If E is constant then R and I and INdirectly proportional, (R goes down/I goes up, R goes up I goes down). This is why when on the same battery if your atty starts to get gummed up the resistance (R) increases which decreases current (I) and performance begins to suffer. The performance drop is not because the power/watts (P) also happened to drop. the watts required to operate the circuit decreased because we ran less energy (I).

the metal in the wire itself can only handle so much heat with that much current.

YES! but wire is not rated by wattage, it is rated by a maximum amperage at a maximum voltage.

I think there's something else in my head about electrolysis and the degradation of wire. If the wire isn't insulated, electrons escaping from the wire by other conductors (air, moisture, whatever) will eventually erode the wire

YES! but we are presumably using Nickel/Chromium wire that does not readily oxidize or corrode, and has a calculated resistance per linear measurement (ohms per foot rating) making it an awesome material for atomizer manufacturing.

ADDED: We operate our attys close to the failure point because we desire the instant heat that it produces at in the small package we need. A toaster coil is an "atty" that can withstand heat fora much longer period of time before burning up because the guage (thickness) is greater and is rated to handle more current before burning. Make no mistake, the 1 to 2 amps that we typically vape at is found in few other small electrical cicuits outsdie of heaters. Your Ipod lasts a long time on a smaller battery because the current draw is minimal and it uses up power at a much slower rate.

[Mattco]

I'm really enjoying this conversation. I'm in the same boat with trying to figure out what to build and trying to get all to work out right in my head.

Let's go with what we experience:
5v with 3.2ohm=1.56amp (7.8 watts) 3.7v with 3.2ohm=1.16amp (4.3 watts)
5v with 1.7ohm=2.94amp (14.7 watts) 3.7v with 1.7ohm=2.17amp (8.1 watts)

5v with 3.2ohm has a similar experience as 3.7v with 1.7ohm because of the wattage...that's what is generally reported (although I haven't tested this myself).

I can see why you're saying watts are irrelevant, but I do think that it's a certain wattage you're aiming for, no matter how you get there. I see wattage as energy used or heat produced, consumed, etc. If you kept your amperage constant throughout variable voltages and resistances, you're going to have different experiences. Similar wattage will produce similar experiences.

I think it's a give and take. If you want a small mod, the higher amperage is going to cause issues with a LR atty sooner. A bigger mod with a lower amperage is going to have a longer lifespan.

I'm beginning to think of this in the terms that the wattage is how hot the atty gets. And the amperage is how fast it gets hot. Both are equally important in the vaping experience.

I'm not seeing any flaws with this. And please point them out if anyone finds them wrong.

[zerotao]

Just to be pedantic; A Watt is the unit by which "energy conversion" is measured. Technically it is not the amount consumed nor the amount produced, but a measure of the amount converted.

W = V^2/ohm = A^2*ohm = V*A = "true power" of a circuit.

Everyone saying that Watts = heat (approximately) are correct in that it is the energy conversion to heat that is being targeted. This can be achieved (as noted above) by varying the amps, voltage or resistance.

The easiest to do (in a small space with fixed components) is to vary the voltage.

Varying the amps in a battery powered device is generally difficult (outside of a very narrow range) and can result in ... some of the mishaps seen on unprotected (or faulty protected) batteries. Even varying the amps within that range is stressful on most batteries if it is done too rapidly/frequently.

Varying the resistance, and still achieving the desired result (ie a hot piece of wire) is simple in a circuit (seen in some types of variable light bulbs) but requires more space.