Do you vape juice from China, or only from USA?

[sailorman]

Correction, juice will be the ONLY thing that gets regulated and even then it will only be the nicotine juice.

Agree

Not trusting China business is hardly unfounded. I would love to trust China on all things so I could buy the illegally imported honey to make mead cheap but honey imports weren't blocked for no reason. That's just one example that you probably didn't know about.
I would love to buy cheap juice but I can't because I can't trust the Chinese to produce something I chronically ingest.

Actually, I did know about the honey. It goes back to what I was saying before. If you are the major producer of whatever, you will shoulder most of the problems. U.S. importers were not blameless in the honey situation. They knew what they were buying.

Who is exaggerating and fabricating nonsense about contamination and subpar quality? I see you make the claim of how much US juice is actually Chinese with nothing to back that up. This very thread has claims about US companies mixing in their bathrooms. Seems to me you're the ones coming up with unfounded claims bent on destroying good people's reputations by instilling irrational fears that aren't based on fact. Telling the FDA that US companies are mixing in unclean conditions and lying about their product is what hurts vaping, not me saying I don't trust Chinese businesses.

I never said a bad thing about any U.S. vendor. Any of them could be mixing in unclean conditions. We don't know one way or the other with respect to most of them. All I ever said was that "made in USA" doesn't mean what it implies. That's no secret, in e-juice or any other business. I also don't consider the fact, and yes it is a fact, that most US juice is made with Chinese nicotine to be a bad thing. The fact is that China produces somewhere near 90% of the nicotine available in the U.S.. Besides the pharmaceutical companies, where would it be going? It's cheap and just as likely to be pure as American nicotine is. So far, I haven't seen any lies about any U.S. juice vendor, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from

The more people say they don't trust Chinese juice the more US or EU companies will buy their supplies from US or EU companies. The more those juice makers buy, the more companies will make those supplies. It does nothing to harm vaping. In fact the more it avoids imports the more it makes vaping harder to ban.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way with tobacco products and Chinese nicotine isn't going anywhere anyway. As long as it's around, it will be cheaper. What little is actually made in the U.S. isn't just sitting around waiting for buyers, and I don't see any boom in U.S. nicotine extraction labs. U.S. nicotine is already priced quite high. That indicates a demand, but that demand isn't being met by additional extraction labs. The reason for that is tobacco is not a "free market" crop. There are tobacco allotments, the crops are "spoken for" and they aren't about to allot extra tobacco acreage to make more nicotine in the U.S. You can't just grow as much tobacco as you want in order to meet a demand. So U.S. grown and produced nicotine will be far more expensive. If people refuse to by juice with Chinese nicotine, there won't be enough juice to go around.

If you want to take away the fear club from the antis it is you who should stop making unfounded claims about US companies and encourage more of them to buy their goods from US sources like those who don't trust Chinese sources are doing.
It's not people's fear that is the problem, it's people's lies told in order to attack those with the fears that is the problem.

Tell me one unfounded claim I've made against US companies. There are none. If a company makes juice with American nicotine, and you can afford it, then I encourage you to do so. But I'm not going to buy from an American company that shouts "Made in USA" on their website, but really uses Chinese nicotine and flavorings. And don't even try to claim that isn't happening. It happens in juice, clothing, cars and everything else you can think of.
If you don't trust Chinese sources, that's fine. Buy from an American company that mixes their juice in America with American made flavorings and American made nicotine. Good luck with that. That'll eliminate about 80-90% of vendors from your shopping list. But don't pretend that the majority of US companies use American nicotine or flavorings. They don't.

Johnson Creek makes juice to as strict of conditions as can be and they are no more money than any other US supplied company.
That is another unfounded claim and exaggeration.
So what is the real reason?

Strict conditions never entered the discussion. Please show me where I said anything about JC being expensive or even using Chinese nicotine? I don't know where they get their nicotine. They're big enough that they buy vast amounts and probably buy American, if they wanted to, without paying the premium other juice companies pay. They could buy their own lab. Most juice companies can't do that. Anyway, the issue was the original source of the nicotine and other ingredients from most US vendors, not the biggest one of them all. Nobody claimed that making juice under strict conditions was overly expensive. What is the real reason for questioning claims and accusations nobody ever made? Why am I being accused of doing what I haven't done?

This is the sum total of everything I've posted on this thread:
Most nicotine comes from China in a very concentrated form.
Most flavors are made from Chinese components, regardless of where they are combined.
American and EU nicotine is significantly more expensive than Chinese nic.
The word "sourced" does not mean "originated'.
The words "made in USA" doesn't necessarily mean made from U.S. components (big surprise?).
U.S. companies often take advantage of consumers' failure to understand what "made in USA" really means.
U.S. companies often take advantage of consumer's failure to understand the difference between "sourced from" and "originated from".
In proportion to what they produce, China has no worse a record than American companies (not particularly in relation to nicotine or juice, but everything).
People go to prison in China for putting contaminated products on the market, a thing unheard of in the U.S..
The biggest producer of ejuice in the world is Chinese and their factory is clean.
You can't necessarily say that about U.S. juice makers, with few exceptions where they allow inspections.

Which of those statements is false, exaggerated, fear mongering or whatever else you accused me of?

[Vapoor eyes er]

One other consideration when buying pre made juice is to ensure it doesn't contain diacetyl. Some vendors will actually state on their website:
All our juices do not contain Diacetyl
""Diacetyl (IUPAC systematic name: butanedione or 2,3-butanedione) is a natural byproduct of fermentation. It is a vicinal diketone (two C=O groups, side-by-side) with the molecular formula C4H6O2. Diacetyl occurs naturally in alcoholic beverages and is added to some foods to impart a buttery flavor."

In "edible" form, it is fine... but in vapour/gaseous form with long term (no one really knows how long) it is toxic and may cause Bronchiolitis obliterans, which is an irrervisible and potentially fatal lung disease.
So.. of course we are heating and vapouring juices.. so juices that contain this ingredient are avoided like the plague. There may only be very minute or trace levels in the juices that contain Diacetyl, however as with anything you are inhaling, it is best to be safe than sorry.
A common product to find this substance in is Microwavable Butter-flavoured popcorn. Ingestion is not a problem but microwaving and inhaling the vapor it could be."
Before I began to DIY this was my go to guy with non Diacetyl juice but he's in Canada.
JUGHEADS.co We've Got the Vapors !
- temporarily closed till May 4th - May 11th ?

After reading the thread on choice of PG or VG juice, I have a different e-liquid question.

Do you use any e-juice, even if it's from China?

Personally, I've avoided anything that goes "into" my body, or that of my pets, that comes from China.
I buy cartomizers made with USA juice only.

[nanovapr]

I only vape juice from my basement, which happens to be in the USA. I use USP certified PG (as if that made a difference) and Kosher VG (as if that made a difference). My nic comes from RTS in North Carolina. There are hairnets/gloves/labcoats/masks and ventilation involved.

I'm not anti-China, I just like what I make better.

[Myk]

Agree


Actually, I did know about the honey. It goes back to what I was saying before. If you are the major producer of whatever, you will shoulder most of the problems. U.S. importers were not blameless in the honey situation. They knew what they were buying.


I never said a bad thing about any U.S. vendor. Any of them could be mixing in unclean conditions. We don't know one way or the other with respect to most of them. All I ever said was that "made in USA" doesn't mean what it implies. That's no secret, in e-juice or any other business. I also don't consider the fact, and yes it is a fact, that most US juice is made with Chinese nicotine to be a bad thing. The fact is that China produces somewhere near 90% of the nicotine available in the U.S.. Besides the pharmaceutical companies, where would it be going? It's cheap and just as likely to be pure as American nicotine is. So far, I haven't seen any lies about any U.S. juice vendor, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from


Sorry, it doesn't work that way with tobacco products and Chinese nicotine isn't going anywhere anyway. As long as it's around, it will be cheaper. What little is actually made in the U.S. isn't just sitting around waiting for buyers, and I don't see any boom in U.S. nicotine extraction labs. U.S. nicotine is already priced quite high. That indicates a demand, but that demand isn't being met by additional extraction labs. The reason for that is tobacco is not a "free market" crop. There are tobacco allotments, the crops are "spoken for" and they aren't about to allot extra tobacco acreage to make more nicotine in the U.S. You can't just grow as much tobacco as you want in order to meet a demand. So U.S. grown and produced nicotine will be far more expensive. If people refuse to by juice with Chinese nicotine, there won't be enough juice to go around.


Tell me one unfounded claim I've made against US companies. There are none. If a company makes juice with American nicotine, and you can afford it, then I encourage you to do so. But I'm not going to buy from an American company that shouts "Made in USA" on their website, but really uses Chinese nicotine and flavorings. And don't even try to claim that isn't happening. It happens in juice, clothing, cars and everything else you can think of.
If you don't trust Chinese sources, that's fine. Buy from an American company that mixes their juice in America with American made flavorings and American made nicotine. Good luck with that. That'll eliminate about 80-90% of vendors from your shopping list. But don't pretend that the majority of US companies use American nicotine or flavorings. They don't.



Strict conditions never entered the discussion. Please show me where I said anything about JC being expensive or even using Chinese nicotine? I don't know where they get their nicotine. They're big enough that they buy vast amounts and probably buy American, if they wanted to, without paying the premium other juice companies pay. They could buy their own lab. Most juice companies can't do that. Anyway, the issue was the original source of the nicotine and other ingredients from most US vendors, not the biggest one of them all. Nobody claimed that making juice under strict conditions was overly expensive. What is the real reason for questioning claims and accusations nobody ever made? Why am I being accused of doing what I haven't done?

This is the sum total of everything I've posted on this thread:
Most nicotine comes from China in a very concentrated form.
Most flavors are made from Chinese components, regardless of where they are combined.
American and EU nicotine is significantly more expensive than Chinese nic.
The word "sourced" does not mean "originated'.
The words "made in USA" doesn't necessarily mean made from U.S. components (big surprise?).
U.S. companies often take advantage of consumers' failure to understand what "made in USA" really means.
U.S. companies often take advantage of consumer's failure to understand the difference between "sourced from" and "originated from".
In proportion to what they produce, China has no worse a record than American companies (not particularly in relation to nicotine or juice, but everything).
People go to prison in China for putting contaminated products on the market, a thing unheard of in the U.S..
The biggest producer of ejuice in the world is Chinese and their factory is clean.
You can't necessarily say that about U.S. juice makers, with few exceptions where they allow inspections.

Which of those statements is false, exaggerated, fear mongering or whatever else you accused me of?

You suggesting that any of them could be unclean is much worse than me saying I can't trust ingesting stuff from China.
I am stating why I avoid Chinese juice. You are making an assumption and stating it as fact.

You went further than to say "made in the USA" doesn't mean what it implies. You were giving made up percentages to say nearly every juice mixer in the US was using Chinese ingredients even though they say otherwise. You backed your made up percentage down once you found out about RTS.

Tobacco allotments do not mean this company gets that much. Tobacco allotments are about what the farmers can grow. If there were predestined allotments American Spirit never would've been able to add perique to their line because that was a pipe and cigar tobacco. Tobacco is sold at auction.
Since most of the vapers are ex-smokers and cigarettes burn whether they are inhaled or not I would venture to guess that every increase in the need for more nicotine is met with a decrease in demand for tobacco to go to cigarettes.
Even if it didn't even out and liquid nicotine had more demand than available tobacco the demand could be met by simply growing a higher nicotine content variety to stay within the government limits on how much can be grown. That's not even getting into the fact that nicotine extraction does not require quality tobacco or even tobacco at all.

You keep on claiming US nicotine is quite costly yet everyone who uses US nicotine is managing to make affordable juice.

One unfounded claim was those who claim US nicotine were actually buying Chinese through a wholesaler. Yet RTS says it's extracted right there in NC.

Where you brought Johnson Creek into it was with your claim that, "Ironically, if we keep it up, a day may come when only the Chinese juice companies, and BP, are big enough to meet the FDA standards and still charge less than $10/ml."
They charge the same >$9/15ml range as any company in the US who uses US nicotine.
If they can manage to keep that price meeting those standards before they are required to, the $10/ml is yet another baseless claim.

People go to prison in China WHEN CAUGHT. If it's something like the honey the government is most likely at least allowing the scam of removing the pollen to keep anyone in China from being caught. They wouldn't even need to test. Just looking out the window and seeing a tanker shipping out more honey than they have legal buyers would be enough.

The biggest producer of e-juice in the US is also clean, so what's your point?

From the files of "be careful what you wish for", after I finished my work for the week I'll go through this thread and collect all the US juice maker falsehoods and who said what.

[nansc]

I vape anything that tastes good.I think a lot of the US vendors use china based liquids to mix their juices anyway.I mostly mix my own now anyway with flavors from Capella (USA) and Flavor Art(Italy).

[elfstone]

"You suggesting that any of them could be unclean is much worse than me saying I can't trust ingesting stuff from China.
I am stating why I avoid Chinese juice. You are making an assumption and stating it as fact."

Now, there - let's not push this to absurd limits. Nobody left the realm of good common sense. With hundreds of vendors, most of them one-person operations, no rules, no regulations, no requirements of transparency, it is a fact that we do not know the conditions some of these vendors work in.

The argument was NOT "American juices are made in poor sanitary conditions"; it was "being made in America alone does not ensure superior working conditions than being made in China" and "we have very little reliable information about the working conditions of the staggering multitude of American vendors ". These are not "lies and exaggerations". The only fault you can find is that they are truisms.

"You were giving made up percentages to say nearly every juice mixer in the US was using Chinese ingredients even though they say otherwise. "

The percentages were made up by necessity and I'm assuming whoever spat them out did so as a figure of speech. There are no percentages, see above: no common rules for disclosure and lack of quality standards and regulation. However, as far as I see it, the reference was not to juice makers who explicitely claim their nicotine or other ingredients are American; the argument was that the statement "made in America" makes no representation as to the origin of the ingredients. From my browsing around, I saw very few vendors making claims as to the ingredients. Again, there are no rules of disclosure, so nobody accused vendors of cheating - just stating an obvious fact. Also, at least two unflavored high nic liquid vendors state they source their nicotine form the same channels as Pharma - which means China/India. There was no assumption made, just an interpretation, again, of the obvious status quo.

If a juice maker states all their ingredients are from the USA, I am willing to take them for their word until proven otherwise. But most juice makers make no such claim.

"They charge the same >$9/15ml range as any company in the US who uses US nicotine."

You are being simplistic. That argument is not about end price (right now, after regulation and taxation that will change). It is about large corporations having higher leverage in negotiating preferential supply chains.

"People go to prison in China WHEN CAUGHT"

Is that a joke, or a serious remark? It's the same everywhere. That argument (a weak one to being with, imo) was that the US business environment tends to have protection in place for high level executives who do bad things, and that punishments are more severe in China. It may, at a stretch, support the contention that the Chinese environment is more deterrent.

"From the files of "be careful what you wish for", after I finished my work for the week I'll go through this thread and collect all the US juice maker falsehoods and who said what. "

I'd love to see that, because then it means you have access to information about the juice makers that I've been dying to see for a long time. Only I couldn't find it.

[elfstone]

The fact remains that most of the hardware, and most of the juice components originate from China and other countries with cheap labor and lax environmental regulations where American and multinational companies do their bulk of production. Bashing China, therefore, does indeed cast doubts on the entire vaping business.

[xXSHOTDOWNXx]

I only use juice in the U.S. for the simple fact of shipping. If it wouldn't cost so much to ship from china at a fast pace then I wouldn't care. As long as the juice is good..

[sailorman]

You suggesting that any of them could be unclean is much worse than me saying I can't trust ingesting stuff from China.
I am stating why I avoid Chinese juice. You are making an assumption and stating it as fact.

Saying that any of them could be unclean is not an assumption. That's a fact. We don't know one way or the other.
You assume you can't trust stuff from China and assume you can trust stuff from the U.S.. I don't know anything more about JC than I do about Dekang, except that Dekang is much larger and I don't hear any problems from either of them. So, I'm assuming both Dekang and JC are o.k.. That doesn't mean all US or China juice makers are good and it doesn't mean they're not. But there are only two Chinese companies that make nearly all of the Chinese juice that's imported. Dekang is by far the largest. If Dekang is clean, then probably 90% of the Chinese juice in America is clean. JC doesn't have nearly that large a market share.
The biggest fact I'm saying is that, with few exceptions, we don't know and I'm not going to assume just because it's a US company, it's automatically cleaner, pure, etc except JC.. Nor will I assume that about Chinese juice, except Dekang, but Dekang is what most Chinese juic is.

You went further than to say "made in the USA" doesn't mean what it implies. You were giving made up percentages to say nearly every juice mixer in the US was using Chinese ingredients even though they say otherwise. You backed your made up percentage down once you found out about RTS.

Yes, because given the amount of Chinese vs American nicotine in the country, there is no way that a majority of juice made here is not Chinese. The majority of juice mixers don't say they don't use Chinese ingredients. The ones that don't, will state it up front because it's a selling point. The ones that say the "source" from the US can, and probably are, getting Chinese juice from a US supplier. So, I stand by that. The amount of nic that RTS makes is trivial compared to the amount imported from China.

Tobacco allotments do not mean this company gets that much. Tobacco allotments are about what the farmers can grow. If there were predestined allotments American Spirit never would've been able to add perique to their line because that was a pipe and cigar tobacco. Tobacco is sold at auction.
Since most of the vapers are ex-smokers and cigarettes burn whether they are inhaled or not I would venture to guess that every increase in the need for more nicotine is met with a decrease in demand for tobacco to go to cigarettes.
Even if it didn't even out and liquid nicotine had more demand than available tobacco the demand could be met by simply growing a higher nicotine content variety to stay within the government limits on how much can be grown. That's not even getting into the fact that nicotine extraction does not require quality tobacco or even tobacco at all.

I didn't say it was alloted by company. It's allotted by farm. So, you can't just grow more if the demand increases. Don't accuse me of saying stuff I don't say. There is a predetermined amount of tobacco grown. Every tobacco plant that is used to extract nicotine is one less plant that goes to the tobacco companies to make cigarettes. If Chinese juice were banned, the amount of tobacco grown here could never keep up with the demand for nicotine extract. That's one reason BP uses Chinese nicotine. They need a lot and don't want to compete for it with Philip Morris. You seriously underestimate the amount of imported nicotine if you think that we could keep up the demand. Now you're talking growing high nic yield tobacco. Yeah, that'll make up the difference. And eggplants. What do you figure that would cost? Every increase in nic demand is NOT met by a decrease in smokers, especially if Chinese nicotine is banned and now you have the pesticide market, the pharma market and god knows who all who uses both pharmaceutical and agricultural grade nicotine all competing for the same number of tobacco plants. The Chinese were importing large quantities of nicotine before anyone knew what an e-cig was. The gov't isn't going to increase the allotment to supply nic for ejuice.

You keep on claiming US nicotine is quite costly yet everyone who uses US nicotine is managing to make affordable juice.

One unfounded claim was those who claim US nicotine were actually buying Chinese through a wholesaler. Yet RTS says it's extracted right there in NC.

Once again, not everyone gets their nic through RTS, and I never said RTS used Chinese nicotine. I specifically said that I didn't know where their nic came from. I really never even said that all those who claim US SOURCED nicotine were buying Chinese through a wholesaler. What I said was that claiming "US sourced" doesn't necessarily mean that it's US nicotine. And I am correct about that. So there you are again, twisting my words and accusing me of saying things I never said. And yes, US nicotine is more costly. So is Euro nicotine. You don't even know who uses US nicotine in their juice, so you cannot claim that everyone using US juice is making affordable juice.

Where you brought Johnson Creek into it was with your claim that, "Ironically, if we keep it up, a day may come when only the Chinese juice companies, and BP, are big enough to meet the FDA standards and still charge less than $10/ml."
They charge the same >$9/15ml range as any company in the US who uses US nicotine.
If they can manage to keep that price meeting those standards before they are required to, the $10/ml is yet another baseless claim.

That brought JC into it??? Where?? Where in that sentence are the words Johnson Creek? But I stand by that anyway. If we keep making a fuss about this, ALL ejuice prices will go up because there will be a limited number of juice makers who can undergo the testing that will be required of them. So, BP, Dekang and a small number of large US makers will be all that's left. Do you seriously think the price will stay where it is when that happens? In Lala land perhaps.

People go to prison in China WHEN CAUGHT. If it's something like the honey the government is most likely at least allowing the scam of removing the pollen to keep anyone in China from being caught. They wouldn't even need to test. Just looking out the window and seeing a tanker shipping out more honey than they have legal buyers would be enough.

And when Americans get caught what happens? Nothing. What happens when BP kills 11 people and destroys the Gulf? A couple scapegoat engineers get charged. What happens when bankers and mortgage brokers and Wall St. tycoons run amok and destroy an economy? They get billions of dollars in tax money. How many cases of contaminated food has there been in the US in recent years? Anyone get "caught"? Anyone charged? Anyone go to jail? When an American health ins. company bilks Medicare out of billions, does anyone go to jail? No, they elect the CEO governor of Florida. Don't even bring up government corruption when you're sitting in the US.

The biggest producer of e-juice in the US is also clean, so what's your point?

That one US company is dwarfed by Dekang. The fact it is clean says nothing about all the other companies. Dekang and the one smaller Chinese company, combined, provide nearly all the Chinese juice that makes it to the U.S.. I'm judging the largest company in the world by their record and the fact they sell vast amounts of juice worldwide. You're judging a thousand backyard and kitchen table juice mixers by one not-so-large juice company in the US.

From the files of "be careful what you wish for", after I finished my work for the week I'll go through this thread and collect all the US juice maker falsehoods and who said what.

Please do. It'll be much better than you mangling, distorting and misrepresenting everything I said. But please, don't be taking stuff out of context to appear the way you remember it instead of the way it was written. I'll be checking your work.

[DC2]

This discussion is interesting, but snide comments will only serve to arouse anger.

I always check my comments before posting them to see if I could use some editing.
I often find there is a lot of what I am saying that doesn't really need to be said.


I would hate to see this thread closed.
That's all I'm saying.