VG and dripping

[chocotaco]

I've been lurking for a little while, but just signed up. I can't post this to Health & Safety where it belongs because I don't have permission. So maybe a mod can move it there.

I have some concerns that I want to share about the safety of glycerin (VG) based e-liquids when used with the cart-less dripping method. First, take a look at my crude diagram of the atomizer inside the e-cig:

[Well, I couldn't post the diagram because the forum won't let me. Because I'm new. I understand spam control, but this is getting kind of irritating.]

What many people think of as the "atomizer" is what you see when you look into the tube - you see the mesh bridge. This is not the thing that does the actual heating. It is a semicircular bridge made of metal wool that is arranged over the heating element, with the heating element at its center. There is also a circle of metal wool that encompasses the atomizer which is flat inside the atomizer.

What happens when you use a cartridge is that the filler material inside the cartridge -which is soaked with e-liquid - comes into contact with the semicircular bridge. The metal wool then wicks up some e-liquid, and the heating element causes that liquid to vaporize.

You can tell subjectively by looking at the heating element that it reaches temperatures in excess of 730C, judging by its black body radiation wavelength (the color it reaches when heated). However, the temperature to which the metal wool is heated in the few seconds of draw is much lower. How much lower I cannot say without measuring it, but that is not the purpose of this post.

The problem is this: when you drip directly onto the atomizer, you will inevitably get some e-juice directly on the heating element. Therefore, if you drip glycerin-based juice, you will likely be generating some dangerous quantities of acrolein - because the heating element reaches a temperature far in excess of that necessary to degrade the glycerol.

In short - if you drip, don't use VG. If you use VG, use it only in cartridges. I have no hard evidence to back this up, but I did drip VG for the first time today, and I noticed a really rancid smell after a couple of puffs. I didn't inhale them, thankfully. Personally, I'll be sticking to CaSH juice until I get some carts (I only have 901 carts and my 901 just died)

[SLDS181]

Originally Posted by chocotaco

You can tell subjectively by looking at the heating element that it reaches temperatures in excess of 730C, judging by its black body radiation wavelength (the color it reaches when heated).

........

1380 degrees farenheit (roughly)?

Black body radiation wavelength? You mean the theoretical, not existing wavelength where all radiation is absorbed, because it generates all wavelengths?


...... no.

[Father Luke]

Nothing conclusive on the acrolein yet.

If you search "acrolein" you'll see this has been discussed.

Here: e-cigarette-forum.com • The place for electronic cigarette reviews, news and chat - Search Results

- -
Okay,
Father Luke

[aschmidy]

I'll let you know if I fall over. I have been using VG only since January and I ONLY drip. Haven't had any problems.

[SLDS181]

Don't worry aschmidy, the OP made a single post, full of nonsense. I don't expect you to be falling over any time soon

visible black body wavelength

[HighTech]

Originally Posted by chocotaco

You can tell subjectively by looking at the heating element that it reaches temperatures in excess of 730C, judging by its black body radiation wavelength (the color it reaches when heated).

Really? According to the FDAs own report, it concluded that the atty did not reach much, if any, beyond 60 degrees celsius. Hmmm, they must have been mistaken...

[chocotaco]

I think my diagram would have made me seem much less of a nutter. Pity I couldn't post it.

You have to differentiate between the heating element and the "atomizer" as a whole. The heating element does in fact reach very high temperatures in some atomizers. If you can see something glowing orange inside the atomizer when you take off the tip, you can be assured that it is reaching the temperatures I indicated - however, it is very small, and is not intended to directly heat the VG. I'm really not just spouting nonsense.

SLDS181, Please look up thermal radiation in any physics text if you don't know what I'm talking about. Very specific temperatures cause very specific wavelengths of light to be emitted. You can pretty well determine the temperature of a material by the wavelength of light it is emitting. Even your body is emitting light because of its temperature - you just can't see it because its wavelength is in the infrared part of the spectrum. You're confusing "black body" with "black body radiation" - the latter is a term used to refer the the phenomenon I discussed.

Like I said, it would take measurement to determine the temperature that the metal wool reaches. Like I said, I haven't made this measurement. I also can't say for sure whether it's likely that you will get juice on the heating element. That would depend on your atomizer and your dripping. I also can't say for sure whether your heating element reaches those temperatures. I only know because I looked inside mine (a 901) and the element did glow orange when activated with a manual switch.

You guys are kind of a bunch of jerks, no offense. I was just cautioning people to be careful about dripping VG. Yeah, I read the other posts about acrolein. I agree that when you use the device as intended there is no danger.

Anyway I don't think I'm going to post anymore. Sorry for pissing you people off. Sheesh.

[annah]

just my totally ignorant opinion..

But my oven using 220V can only reach 500 degrees. I realize that is the temperature of the air inside, not the metal heating elements, but still.. 200v vs 4? volts For some reason I doubt that a tiny battery operated device can reach over 1000 degrees. I just dont think theres enough power in the battery to do it. And for that matter, isn't the melting point of most metals lower than that?

[stevo_tdo]

I don't know where to start, short answer = not much if any acrolein. Definitely not 700 plus temp.

Damn, hey kinabaloo are you there, you know more than most on this particular subject

Typically that burn taste is when the atty gets to hot (you need to cool down between puffs) and when your atty is getting dry.

[SLDS181]

Originally Posted by chocotaco

I think my diagram would have made me seem much less of a nutter. Pity I couldn't post it.

Doubtful.

Originally Posted by chocotaco

SLDS181, Please look up thermal radiation in any physics text if you don't know what I'm talking about. Very specific temperatures cause very specific wavelengths of light to be emitted. You can pretty well determine the temperature of a material by the wavelength of light it is emitting. Even your body is emitting light because of its temperature - you just can't see it because its wavelength is in the infrared part of the spectrum. You're confusing "black body" with "black body radiation" - the latter is a term used to refer the the phenomenon I discussed.

I think you need to go back to studying your texts. Black body radiation wavelength references a very specific phenomenon, where no radiation passes through or is reflected.

The heating coils and atomizers have been measured. They are all around 60 degrees Celsius, and by no means are they in any way close to 730 degrees Celsius, the power from the battery is not capable of creating that kind of heat. Even in small amounts, that amount of heat would fry your fingers, tear apart your throat, and destroy your lungs.

It is not physically possible to achieve what you are describing.

Originally Posted by chocotaco

You guys are kind of a bunch of jerks, no offense. I was just cautioning people to be careful about dripping VG. Yeah, I read the other posts about acrolein. I agree that when you use the device as intended there is no danger.

Anyway I don't think I'm going to post anymore. Sorry for pissing you people off. Sheesh.

How would you expect us to respond to something so ridiculous? Do you have any idea how hot 730 degrees Celsius is? Did you read any of the studies done which state - quite explicitly - the temperatures achieved when using a PV?

You're going to get an annoyed response when you post something completely asinine. Sorry.