Question about Mg. Nicotine and E-Juice

[RoadRunner]

No offense to those who said 60mg of nicotine is lethal... but that just isn't correct. It is 60mg per kilogram of body weight. BIG difference.

You should probably have checked your facts before posting.

In fact, I can prove that 60mg of nicotine isn't enough to kill. I vape the 36mg liquid exclusively... meaning 36mg of nicotine per milliliter. I vape between 4 and 5 ml each day, meaning I take in 144 to 180 mg of nicotine each day. If 60mg of nicotine is lethal, I hardly think I'd be able to take in 2 to 3 times that amount every day and still feel BETTER than I felt when I smoked analogs.

You are basing your "proof" on a number of misunderstandings.
Before posting in reply to your comments, I checked my facts and I include references here for all to see.
From:
inchem dot org/documents/pims/chemical/nicotine.htm

6.3 Biological half-life by route of exposure
The elimination half-life of nicotine averages 2 hours
(Benowitz, 1982; Feyerabend, 1985). The half-life of a drug
is useful in predicting the rate of accumulation of that drug
in the body with repetitive dosing and the time course of
decline after cessation of dosing. Consistent with a half-life
of 2 hours, accumulation of nicotine over 6 to 8 hours during
regular smoking and persistence of significant levels of
nicotine in the blood for 6 to 8 hours after cessation of
smoking, i.e. overnight, has been observed (Benowitz, 1982b).
Thus, cigarette smoking represents a situation where the
smoker is exposed to significant concentrations and possibly
pharmacological effects of nicotine for 24 hours a day.

You are spreading your dose throughout the day and thus, your body is eliminating your intake almost as quickly as you work to increase it. Your intake through vaping and your elimination through metabolism are near to being in equilibrium.
If this were not so, you would indeed, rapidly poison yourself.
... and this is why most of us want to smoke/vape more in the mornings... Because we've not been absorbing nicotine in our sleep, we've been eliminating it. Thus, we awake with lower plasma concentrations and then have a little bit of a binge to top our levels up then slow down after we've achieved our "comfort zone" once more.

Another misconception is in relation to the amount of nicotine in a cigarette.
Because cigarettes have a rating which indicates a strength, people assume that the rating refers to the nicotine content.
It does not. It refers to the amount of nicotine absorbed by a standardised "smoking machine" when "inhaling" on a lit cigarette.

3.1 Origin of the substance
Nicotine is a natural alkaloid obtained from the dried
leaves and stems of the Nicotiana tabacum and Nicotiana rustica,
where it occurs in concentrations of 0.5-8%. Cigarette tobacco
varies in its nicotine content, but common blends contain 15-25
mg per cigarette, with a current trend towards lower
levels.

The also applies to vaping.
Although a juice may be rated as 36mg/ml, we do not absorb 36mg of nicotine if we vape and inhale 1ml of juice. The amount of nicotine absorbed is far less per ml than the rating of the juice we are vaping.

Not only is your body eliminating the nicotine you are inhaling via normal metabolic processes, you're not absorbing everything that you inhale. What do you think is in the vapour that you exhale ?
I've seen people trying to claim that it is pure steam and this myth is passed from one scientifically illiterate individual to another faster than a reefer at a reggae party. I'm reasonably sure that my lungs don't achieve a temperature of 100 deg C.
... and finally - The facts which you misquoted.

7. TOXICOLOGY
7.1 Mode of Action
Nicotine is an agonist at nicotinic receptors in the
peripheral and central nervous system. In man, as in animals,
nicotine has been shown to produce both behavioral stimulation
and depression. Pharmacodynamic studies indicate a complex
dose response relationship, due both to complexity of
intrinsic pharmacological actions and to rapid development of
tolerance.
7.2 Toxicity
7.2.1 Human data
7.2.1.1 Adults
The mean lethal dose has been estimated to be 30
to 60 mg (0.5-1.0 mg/kg) (Gosselin, 1988).
7.2.1.2 Children
The lethal dose is considered to be about 10 mg
of nicotine (Arena, 1974).
7.2.2 Relevant animal data
Dog: oral LD50: 9.2 mg/kg
mouse: oral LD50: 3.3 mg/kg (RTECS, 1985-86)
rat: oral LD50: 50 mg/kg

For those unfamiliar with the term, "LD50" refers to the dosage which would kill 50% of test subjects. It's a kind of fancy way of saying "on average".
What this is saying is that if you were to absorb 60mg of nicotine into your bloodstream, it is highly likely that you will have succumbed to a dose which will lead to your death.
The fact that until now, no-one appears to have pulled you up on your error is rather worrying.
How many newbie vapers might have read your post and are now repeating a myth ?
How many veteran vapers have read your post and weren't instantly alerted to the glaring errors?

In my experience, the speed of fact is considerably less than the speed of fiction but hopefully I've helped to put the record straight... and if you're still convinced that 60mg isn't a lethal dose, drawing a couple of ml of your juice into an hypodermic syringe and taking it intravenously will put the record straight. However, you won't know the truth for long... Probably not even long enough to tell anyone.
Vape safely everyone.

Paul..
The RoadRunner..

[DarthVapr]

not to jump off subject but reading this i plan to dilute my juice for now or at lest try it and see; what would yall dilute it with pg or vg (non nic) can you find it at the local supermaket what would you look for in what section what else do they use pg for anyone know if i remember right someone here said you can get it easy and its real cheap like a couple of bucks a liter i dont know how true that is but i would love to find out?

Good deal on both here at Tasty Vapor. $7 for PG, and $5 for VG. Both are 4 ounce bottles.

PG is what most use, with a mix of VG which adds more vapor but, they say, reduces throat hit. Just experiment.
----------------------------------------
Choosing healthier alternatives is a right, not a privilege.

[mistinthewoods]

OK, I scanned through all the posts on this thread. There's some pretty intelligent sounding people posting in here. One point I haven't seen made yet though is one about absorption.
I remember reading a report from a study recently where subjects had the nicotine levels in their blood plasma read. Half of the subjects were given cigarettes to smoke and the other half were given ecigs and instructed to vape juice that equalled the nicotine in the cigarettes. The levels in the smokers were 10 times that of the vapers. It seems that combustion is a much more efficient delivery method for nicotine than atomization.

[Altmed]

There is a great deal of misrepresentation of nicotine in this thread. 60mg of nicotine IS NOT LETHAL to human beings. A lethal amount of nicotine for humans is 60mg PER KILOGRAM of body weight. In other words, if you weigh 100 pounds (45.36kg) the amount of nicotine you would have to ingest to be killed would be 60mg x 45.36, or 2721.6mg (2.72 grams) of nicotine.

A 10ml bottle of 18mg nicotine liquid has 180 milligrams of nicotine, so someone weighing 100 lbs. would have to ingest FIFTEEN bottles of that liquid in order to die.

No offense to those who said 60mg of nicotine is lethal... but that just isn't correct. It is 60mg per kilogram of body weight. BIG difference.

Hi Ultimist and all!

I think what you said about the 30mg/ml is the key here...
Those thinking they are trying to save a few bucks by buying say a 40% nicotine sulfate could find themselves in big trouble without knowing how to handle chemicals properly!

I've looked at links from this site & they seem to be geared towards home use, which seems to be pretty safe.. just be sure to keep dogs, cats & kids away from the nicotine, PG, etc. Even some flavors may be toxic to animals (like true chocolate & dogs for instance, so use some common sense!) PG is toxic to dogs, cats especially, so if you spill it, clean it up!

I'm sure most here don't have access to a lab with what is required to handle the manufacture of e-liquid from its "bare components", BUT the 30mg/ml +/-should be relatively safe for home use... just like cigs, keep out of reach of kids, animals, store in cool,dry place (more for the product's life), etc.

A nicotine sulfate 40%, for example, in an aqueous solution is an entirely different story altogether. and a large spill can cause death by inhalation!

Even a 30% solution of nic sulfate can be VERY dangerous if not handled properly! The vapor from a large spill can be deadly & require a hazmat team to clean up! While a 30mg/ml solution is a lot safer & fine for home use.

DIYers need to know WHAT they are buying AND the CONCENTRATION of what they are buying! High concentrations of nicotine belong in a lab with persons handling it knowing & with th proper equipment! Adding water to a say 40% (NOT 40mg/ml, that is FAR less concentrated) nicotine sulfate solution can be a VERY dangerous thing! If working with raw materials, you should be familiar with MSDS and have some chemistry background (or get a chemistry education) BEFORE working with anything more than the home use concentrations!

If you get solution that's made to mix w/ flavors say at around 40mg/ml, yes, you should always be careful, yet thee are relatively safe...

The dangers w/ lab-grade high concentrations are not overstated at all! The "scare tactics" of things such as the lower concentrations and especially the PG are ridiculous! I have deodorant & food in my cupboards hat are full of (my deodorant is primarily PG, and it is in many, many foods we eat!!!)

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from DIY, quite the opposite!!!

I just want people to support vendors that sell concentrations that can be safely used at home!!! Going to a lab-oriented chemical supply that expects you have a lab on your end if you don't isn't a great way to DIY safely!

DIY looks SO fun, I can't wait to get started (already ordered some things & can't wait to get started!)

There are plenty of suppliers that sell eliquid is home-use dilutions that I would use any day of the week at home. There are chem suppliers that sell far higher concentrations that REQUIRE special equipment to handle AND the know-how to handle them safely!

I love the DIY idea & am new to eCigs. I'm VERY glad I found this forum!

This is a great place to learn about everything eCig & exchange recipes, find new flavors from many of these places!

I already ordered quite a bit & have ever-growing wish-lists! I wish ALL the sites had a "wish list" section!

Just a reminder to be careful, know what you are ordering & be sure it's for home use! Leave the ultra high concentrations to the labs, and order the lower concentrations of nicotine for home use & by mg/ml, NOT the same numbers in percentages!!!

Happy + safe vaping and mixing!

-Altmed

[fritos1]

I vape like I smoked I figure till I wake up one day 6ft under I'm good to go.

[Altmed]

Hi Roadrunner,

I think that your last comment re: IV injection of 60mg of nicotine would wind up being #1 on the "Darwin Awards" web site.

Yes, I'm a newbie to eCigs, but not to chemistry/biology and labs.

Again familiarity with MSDS and %ages vs. mg/ml are essential...

I used cigarette ash & butt-tobacco "tea" made in ask trays to rid my roses of aphids, white fly & other insect critters! Works great to rid plants of pests & you can buy essentially the same thing is the "Safer" brands of pesticides, which are generally a level I toxicity level (LD 50-60 mg/kg in rats orally), Methyl bromide is the lower end of a level II toxicity level (LD 65 mg/kg in rats orally.)

Methyl bromide is nasty stuff... I've felt ill for many hours by simply driving where you can smell it when the farmers have first gassed the fields. Methyl bromide is used commercially on strawberry fields that are required to semi-contain it in the ground with plastic sheeting, but it still leaks out.

Like I said in my earlier posts, DIY can be a LOT of fun, but we all need to be careful & know what it is we are doing.

If not absolutely sure it is safe, then simply don't do it! There are plenty of incredibly awesome flavors that are already in cartomiters or premixed eLiquids to choose from & enjoy, or just add flavors to and enjoy Again, be sure you are using tested flavors & suppliers! If you aren't sure it is safe, then leave it to those who do!)

Thanks for the informative post for everyone!

-Altmed

[Krythis]

I get this question from my non-vapping smoker friends all the time. What happens if you spill it on yourself, whats the comparison to the nic you get from a cig etc. I never know what to tell them except, 'Well I vape what I'm told is ~18mg per ml and I vape it until I don't feel like I need it anymore and when I start feeling swirly I know I've vaped too much. I've spilled small amounts of 54mg on myself and cleaned it off without feeling any affects from it.' Moral of the story, I'm not comfortable not knowing what I'm handling or inhaling but I do know it's not as bad as an analog.

Does PG based nicotine absorb through the skin? How long does it take? If I were to pour my 18mg juice on myself how much would I need to even feel an affect from it?

[jethro145]

i am new to this(4 weeks going)....what i cant understand is that when we all started smoking analogs we never were concerned with the absorption of nicotine then.....y the big deal now?these work very well..and r way better for u..

[markfm]

Jethro, basically a smoked cigarette delivers about 1 mg of nicotine per the old puffer machine measurements (discontinued several years ago due to questions about accuracy), so there was no practical way you could be in a danger zone smoking relative to total nicotine (instantaneously smoking 40 cigs just can't happen).

Switch to vaping and you're dealing with liquid form, potential for accidental ingestion or skin absorption, particularly if you're working with higher concentration nicotine (100 mg/ml is pretty popular as a starter, that you then downmix to whatever your target final concentration is).

End of the day, don't drink your eliquid (a couple drops from an overfilled carto aren't going to kill you), it's good to wash your hands or at least wipe them after filling a carto (and don't rub your eyes with liquid-drenched hands), generally treat the liquid with respect (don't put it out where kids and pets can get to it), and life is fine. If you choose to DIY, start working with the higher concentration liquids, then you bump your precautions in handling/storage/cleanliness.

[starstx]

I know this thread has been kicked around for awhile. I do not claim to be an expert or to the validity of this information or link but this is what I came across wondering about cigs and e-cigs and nicotine so take it for what it is worth. I was curious about nicotine intake since there is a large difference between the mg of nicotine in a cig. vs. in the e-liquid and didn't think about absorption and found this interesting if true.

How Many mg of Nicotine Are in an Electronic Cigarette? | eHow.com

Cigarettes vs. E-cigarettes

<LI id=jsArticleStep1 itxtvisited="1">An average smoker takes about 15 puffs on a cigarette, which ranges from 1 to 2 mg of nicotine consumption per cigarette. Comparatively, 15 puffs on a 16 mg cartridge would equal about 0.15 mg of nicotine. Thus, the nicotine absorption is far less in an e-cigarette than a regular cigarette.

Read more: How Many mg of Nicotine Are in an Electronic Cigarette? | eHow.com How Many mg of Nicotine Are in an Electronic Cigarette? | eHow.com