In retrospect - Thread of proving nicotine is addictive.

[Denni]

Shouldn't they have to prove that someone would be much more likely to get addicted to an e-cig with nic than a placebo e-cig without nic to call it a powerful drug and make the "for the kids" argument?

No, they don't have to prove anything. In fact it would be extremely unethical to conduct a test to show if nicotine on its own has addictive potential for people who haven't been exposed to it. (saying that, nicotine has been under consideration for use as a stand-alone drug for some psychiatric conditions. I'm not aware of such nicotine-only studies, but I'll have a root around later because maybe they've tested it on people who already use NRT.)

So far people generally developed nicotine addiction through smoking analogue cigs, so there is no precedent to my knowledge. However, it is counter-productive to present e-cigs as 'harmless'. These products are clearly meant as a smoking alternative and should under no circumstances be marketed as anything else or (God forbid!) targeted at kids. Smoking isn't cool, and neither is vaping.

[katink]

Originally Posted by Chevron07

...Katink, Just out of curiosity, have you tried a blind test to go below 11mg's? Give some 8mg liquid to a loved one and have them swap it out on you at a random time or something?

Yes, several times. My body (or brain) didn't let itself be fooled.
However, I'm patient... hopefully I will get to a lower step again at some time in the future (though I don't really expect to ever get to zero; but I can live with that well enough as long as e-cigs are around). Going to just go with tiny babysteps from here on, perhaps 1 mg at a time, see how that works

[runninlater]

I have long suspected that cigs contain other addictive ingredients. I started vaping almost 3 weeks ago and cutting down from 2 packs a day smoking.

I now only smoke between 2-5 cigs a day and vape like a vampire!!

What I do know about cigs is that the delivery system for the nicotine is way more intense than just smoking tobacco.
Big tobacco started lacing the tobacco with ammonia. Marlboro was the first to do this in the late 60's and they instantly became the #1 brand and continue to reign as #1 to this day. Lorillard finally figured out what Phillip Morris was adding to the Marlboro and they immediately joined in adding ammonia. Newport (made by Lorillard is the most popular menthol cig on the market and has been for about 30 years. Now all US cig manufacturers add ammonia.
Get the picture?
Adding ammonia causes the nicotine in a cig to be freebased. (Think of cocaine and crack.) Creating a much more addictive form of nicotine that hits the brain faster and harder.
Then big tobacco also adds ingredients that when burned cause bronchodilation. This allows the air passage ways in the lungs to "open up" and carry more freebased nicotine to the brain.
These are only a couple of examples of the 400 to 600 additives in cigarettes. Heaven only knows what else is in there and what effect it might have.

So trying to compare nicotine in a cigarette to nicotine in vaping is just not possible. It's just not the same animal.

Your body and brain have become addicted to a highly engineered form of nicotine that vaping or patches/gum cannot fully replace.

I'm hoping that kicking the nic habit from vaping will be a bit less painful than kicking the nic habit from cigarettes.

(Hope shines eternal!)

[rejoice]

Originally Posted by runninlater

I have long suspected that cigs contain other addictive ingredients. I started vaping almost 3 weeks ago and cutting down from 2 packs a day smoking.

I now only smoke between 2-5 cigs a day and vape like a vampire!!

What I do know about cigs is that the delivery system for the nicotine is way more intense than just smoking tobacco.
Big tobacco started lacing the tobacco with ammonia. Marlboro was the first to do this in the late 60's and they instantly became the #1 brand and continue to reign as #1 to this day. Lorillard finally figured out what Phillip Morris was adding to the Marlboro and they immediately joined in adding ammonia. Newport (made by Lorillard is the most popular menthol cig on the market and has been for about 30 years. Now all US cig manufacturers add ammonia.
Get the picture?
Adding ammonia causes the nicotine in a cig to be freebased. (Think of cocaine and crack.) Creating a much more addictive form of nicotine that hits the brain faster and harder.
Then big tobacco also adds ingredients that when burned cause bronchodilation. This allows the air passage ways in the lungs to "open up" and carry more freebased nicotine to the brain.
These are only a couple of examples of the 400 to 600 additives in cigarettes. Heaven only knows what else is in there and what effect it might have.

So trying to compare nicotine in a cigarette to nicotine in vaping is just not possible. It's just not the same animal.

Your body and brain have become addicted to a highly engineered form of nicotine that vaping or patches/gum cannot fully replace.

I'm hoping that kicking the nic habit from vaping will be a bit less painful than kicking the nic habit from cigarettes.

(Hope shines eternal!)

This is one excellent post. I read this twice. I have read about this amonnia. Do you know if other countrys have this added amonnia?

[Savantster]

From what I have been able to gather so far..

Dopamine is a drug that seems to encourage behaviors, and seems to be something that drives "anticipation". That is, when Dopamine is present in ample supply, whatever action you do that brings you "pleasure" at that point becomes something your brain associates with pleasure, intensified (more strongly imprinted in your mind) because the Dopamine is present.

That is, if you kick up your Dopamine then, say, fly a kite and enjoy it, your brain quickly starts to anticipate enjoyment from flying kites. So much so, that if you fly a kite, your brain will increase Dopamine levels to reinforce that behavior.

This premise becomes important when you look at what Nicotine does.. it causes increases of Dopamine to be released into your brain. Ever notice how so many vapor folks "love buying more vape stuff"? .. possibly because they are getting clean nicotine in their vape, and do that while ordering more stuff, and the nicotine starts to create that addiction (to buying) right there.. then, thinking about (and actually doing it) buying causes pleasure/Dopamine release.. vicious cycle, but biologically intended to keep us doing "good things" (in a survival context).

Basically, Nicotine may well drive Dopamine which drives addiction, and with analogs, it can be tied to some of the 3999 chemicals in that cocktail, and/or other things that happen when you're smoking. It sure would help explain things like "that first smoke in the morning with coffee is the best", or "I have one every time I get into my car", etc. etc.. anticipatory and/or reward from something way back when, artificially reinforced via Dopamine.

[Kitabz]

Originally Posted by katink

I only vape, no tobacco at all for more then a year; and I can't get below 11 mg. Worked my way down from 18 to 11; but there the train just stops (at least has stopped for months now). So for me nicotine-addiction is real. But I know it isn't for all... some can indeed take it or leave it, no trouble. Lucky them.

Yes, I know some smokers who can [relatively easily] quit and start up again and quit again (and I don't mean that they fell off the wagon, they consciously started again for, say, a holiday and then gave up again at the end of it).

When smoking analogs, I could cut down but I could never get below 8 and day and I was always craving and counting the hours between doses.

I've tried to go for spells without vaping and I can't do it for more than a few hours and I'm starting to get twitchy after about 30 minutes. On the low mg stuff, I have to vape constantly because I'm just not getting any satisfaction. I managed to go for an easy two hours tonight but I was using snuff instead; for me it's definitely the nicotine.

[Kitabz]

Originally Posted by runninlater

Adding ammonia causes the nicotine in a cig to be freebased. (Think of cocaine and crack.) Creating a much more addictive form of nicotine that hits the brain faster and harder.
[...]
So trying to compare nicotine in a cigarette to nicotine in vaping is just not possible. It's just not the same animal.

Your body and brain have become addicted to a highly engineered form of nicotine that vaping or patches/gum cannot fully replace.

Wow, this is news to me and fascinating but shocking.

It does explain why e-cigs and official NRTs are not quite as satisfying as the real thing. In the case of e-cigs, it's pretty good, but not quite there, fortunately good enough to manage the cravings. I wonder how long it takes our bodies/minds to get used to this new level of intensity and accept it as "normal".

I've just come across this web page which has some interesting information on additives within cigarettes: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/sc...acigarette.htm. The scientist's comments are especially interesting.

[Savantster]

Kitabz, keep in mind that Nicotine "sticks to stuff", so if you're light dragging on an e-cig, you aren't getting much of your nicotine, either.. Pulling a starter puff, then a deep drag should kick out some nicotine for you. All that is going to do, I think, is make time between drags longer (more than 30 minutes, for example), and might waste less liquid in the long run..?

That's based on the study from Health New Zealand that said the smaller puffs didn't have much nicotine in them, and the deeper puffs measured much more nicotine by ratio..

[Kitabz]

Originally Posted by Savantster

Kitabz, keep in mind that Nicotine "sticks to stuff", so if you're light dragging on an e-cig, you aren't getting much of your nicotine, either.. Pulling a starter puff, then a deep drag should kick out some nicotine for you. All that is going to do, I think, is make time between drags longer (more than 30 minutes, for example), and might waste less liquid in the long run..?

That's based on the study from Health New Zealand that said the smaller puffs didn't have much nicotine in them, and the deeper puffs measured much more nicotine by ratio..

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. No, I don't drag heavily (and I guess I didn't with analogs either which is maybe why I've never had any chest/coughing issues with analog smoking). For better or worse I'm going to stick with what's comfortable for me and that's high mg, shorter puffs.
Longer term, I can see me moving towards snuff for the nicotine and e-cigs for a boost/treat.

[Letzin Hale]

Originally Posted by Savantster

From what I have been able to gather so far..

Dopamine is a drug that seems to encourage behaviors, and seems to be something that drives "anticipation". That is, when Dopamine is present in ample supply, whatever action you do that brings you "pleasure" at that point becomes something your brain associates with pleasure, intensified (more strongly imprinted in your mind) because the Dopamine is present.

That is, if you kick up your Dopamine then, say, fly a kite and enjoy it, your brain quickly starts to anticipate enjoyment from flying kites. So much so, that if you fly a kite, your brain will increase Dopamine levels to reinforce that behavior.

This premise becomes important when you look at what Nicotine does.. it causes increases of Dopamine to be released into your brain. Ever notice how so many vapor folks "love buying more vape stuff"? .. possibly because they are getting clean nicotine in their vape, and do that while ordering more stuff, and the nicotine starts to create that addiction (to buying) right there.. then, thinking about (and actually doing it) buying causes pleasure/Dopamine release.. vicious cycle, but biologically intended to keep us doing "good things" (in a survival context).

Basically, Nicotine may well drive Dopamine which drives addiction, and with analogs, it can be tied to some of the 3999 chemicals in that cocktail, and/or other things that happen when you're smoking. It sure would help explain things like "that first smoke in the morning with coffee is the best", or "I have one every time I get into my car", etc. etc.. anticipatory and/or reward from something way back when, artificially reinforced via Dopamine.

A good read but one which prompts the question, 'how come I feel so good, ie happy, physically, mentally and psychology better since I went Zero Nic?'
I'm not denying the info above but I really do feel much better. I have a saying that I use with my 3 year old grandaughter when she's getting tetchy, 'calm your skin', which works wonders and that's how I feel, much calmer, less stressed, better equipped to deal with the same pressure situations and with a sense of freedom.
I wonder if the ammonia has anything significant to do with addiction and also whether it is added to hand rolling tobacco, which is what I used.
I found it disturbingly easy to quit tobacco in favour of ecigs and it was even easier to quit Nicotine altogether; quitting tobacco was incidental, quitting Nicotine was intended. I don't vape anywhere near as much but it is there for when I do feel any craving and I'm happy with that as I know the zero is not having the same negative effects on both my body and mind.
I have already come in for some flak when I advocated that others should try zero and no doubt will again, but that's cool and it won't make me run away and hide, nor will it make that addiction go away. There are countless reasons that can be listed for not quitting Nicotine, but there are no valid excuses. Of course it's your choice, it's a free world, but why then remain enslaved when we have the best solution ever invented?
Alan.