How toxic is E-Liquid? - e-cigarette-forum.com • The place for electronic cigarette reviews, news and chat

MrHoyle · 05-02-2009, 06:01 AM

Well friends... I just started refilling my own carts and I am always very careful about not getting the liquid on my skin, and always washing my hands after handling the stuff, but I can't help but wonder if I am being unnecessarily cautious. Occasionally some of the juice drips out the back of my supermini and I get it on my lips or in my mouth and I haven't gotten sick or anything yet. So the question is : How Toxic is E-Liquid?

Harry Crazington · 05-02-2009, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrHoyle

Well friends... I just started refilling my own carts and I am always very careful about not getting the liquid on my skin, and always washing my hands after handling the stuff, but I can't help but wonder if I am being unnecessarily cautious. Occasionally some of the juice drips out the back of my supermini and I get it on my lips or in my mouth and I haven't gotten sick or anything yet. So the question is : How Toxic is E-Liquid?

A one ounce (30ml) bottle of 36mg (high nic) eJuice contains 36mg x 30ml = 1080mg of nicotine. A lethal dose is 50 to 60mg in the bloodstream under ideal circumstances.
1080mg divided by 60mg = 18 lethal doses per bottle.

eJuice is also extremely flammable. Put a drop on a metal spoon, apply flame... **poof**

Wear a HazMat suit (like my avatar) at all times while vaping, also have a fire extinguisher nearby just in case.

kyle82 · 05-02-2009, 08:32 AM

wow. what exactly is an e-liquid? another form of nicotine intake? how does it goes guys? and you said it's flammable?? would that be an awful alternative for cigarette.. whuuush..

yvilla · 05-02-2009, 08:40 AM

Another perspective: Toxic if ingested, sure. But, 36mg liquid is 3.6% nicotine in density. Thus, those drops on your hand have, you guessed it, 3.6% nicotine. The other 96.4% of the drops is composed of propylene glycol, water, flavors. No big deal. I get it all over myself, and simply wipe off with whatever is handy.

Harry Crazington · 05-02-2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yvilla

Another perspective: Toxic if ingested, sure. But, 36mg liquid is 3.6% nicotine in density. Thus, those drops on your hand have, you guessed it, 3.6% nicotine. The other 96.4% of the drops is composed of propylene glycol, water, flavors. No big deal. I get it all over myself, and simply wipe off with whatever is handy.

Hi Yvilla, yes if ingested, or injected, or any other introduction to the bloodstream. Also the lethal dose of 50-60mg is for an average adult. It's way less for children, dependent on body size.
An average ml = 20 drops so 36mg per ml divided by 20 drops is about 1.8mg nicotine per drop, or about an average dose for smoking one real cigarette.

Reverend Damien Caine · 05-02-2009, 08:52 AM

It's really hard to gauge the toxicity of e-liquid, almost everyone on here seems to assume that pure undiluted nicotine is used in the mix, none of the Chinese fluid is made with 100% nicotine, the measurement Xmg/mL is inaccurate as the measure of nicotine is actually from a solution of nicotine and water. Nicotine, being completely water soluble is not measured or confirmed before production of e-liquid.

Regardless of this information, it is quite difficult to poison yourself while refilling a cart (I will tell you through, a freak accident, it burns like hell if its sprayed in your eyes)

Interesting fact, nicotine extraction is usually clear, as it oxidizes, it turns a darker shade of brown, Even completely sealed nicotine solution tends to break down due to the oxidation from the water within the solution, this is usually stopped with liquid nitrogen containment, around −196 °C, which of course virtually stops any chemical change within the solution.

rlorange · 05-02-2009, 09:14 AM

It is probably best to consider the toxicity of the separate components of e-liquid separately. The combined toxicity is perhaps unknown but I think it is safe to say that at the quantities consumed e-liquid is safe.

Propylene Glycol. The lethal dose is more that 1.5liters consumed at one time! the amount consumed by a heavy vaper is close to the WHO recommended daily max intake. Bear in mind that this figure is highly conservative so it is unlikely that an average young and healthy user would experience any toxicity processing and eliminating the PG. If you look at the MSDS for PG the only concern really is chronic low irritation of the mucus membranes from inhalation. Considering most vapers are ex-somokers this is of little concern because this irritation is a million times less harmfull from smoking.

Nicotine: As we all know Nicotine is VERY toxic, 30mg in a single dose is enough to kill! HAving said that the small does we ingest from smoking (or vaping) is not particularly harmful, perhaps no more than several strong coffees a day... Nicotine will irritate the lungs and throat however.

The big unknown....

I am referring to the tobacco essence and flavorings combined with PG and heat from vaporizing coil. Clearly the black atomizer killing residue is evidence of heat induced chemical reactions which may be synthesising toxic compounds. A very toxic reaction product from Glycerine (VG) under heat is possible (See the thread 'The Acrolein problem').

I have had a mild allergic reaction to one particular e-liquid 36mg Turkish Blended which is relatively dark brown and has a lot of tobacco essence in it....

Tobacco essence liquids are likely to be more toxic than the other flavours

Best remember that consuming e-liquid while vaping will put a substantial load on the body. It will definitely work every organ in your body and combined with the rest of life's exceses this load itself may be considered mildly toxic. Again I mention that one needs to compare it with the undisputed toxicity of smoking.

As for skin contact with e-liquid... nothing to worry about as long as you wash it off, you would need to drip a half a ml on your skin and leave it there for a day before enough nicotine gets into your blood to cause concern. For comparison a nicotine patch has 100+mg in contact with your skin and over 24hrs only 21mg is absorbed.

Final important point, not all of the nicotine from vaping is absorbed. The heat from an e-cig will destroy some and much is exhaled, also like any alkaloid in its acidic form it is far less absorbable than its basic form. This is the same reason why powdered cocaine is so different (and less potent) than crack cocaine, the latter being basic. Tobacco companies free-base the nicotine so it is more potent, if you don't believe me then buy a pack of unprocessed 'American spirit' brand cigarettes and compare the 'hit' with regular cigs. It is far less potent, there is no difference in the quantity of nicotine just its chemical structure. e-liquid contains the less potent acidic form. From personal experience I believe the nicotine in e-liquid is maybe half or less as potent, so maybe 3mg of nicotine from e-smoking is equivalent to the 1-1.2mg absorbed from a regular cigarette

Harry Crazington · 05-02-2009, 09:30 AM

There is however another frequently overlooked form of nicotine toxicity....

Nicotine Speeds Lung Cancer

Nicotine Plugs Directly Into Lung Cells, Tells Tumors to Grow
By Daniel J. DeNoon
WebMD Health News
Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

July 20, 2006 -- Nicotine directly speeds the growth of lung cancer, University of South Florida researchers report.
Tobacco smoke contains agents that cause cancer. But nicotine itself isn't one of them. Instead, nicotine promotes the growth of existing cancer cells.
Exactly how nicotine does this is now becoming clear: It plugs directly into lung cells, where it jump-starts the cells' growth machinery. If those cells are cancerous, nicotine makes them grow wildly.
"These events can be expected to contribute to the growth and progression of tumors exposed to nicotine through tobacco smoke or cigarette substitutes," suggest Piyali Dasgupta, PhD, and colleagues at H. Lee Moffitt Cancer Center, USF, Tampa, Fla.
Dasgupta and colleagues found that nicotine plugs into receptors called nicotinic acetylcholine receptors or nAChRs. These receptors are found throughout the body.
The finding may help explain why chemotherapy for breast cancer is less effective in smokers and why cigarette smoke helps many different kinds of cancer grow.
The study appears in the August issue of the Journal of Clinical Investigation.

Reverend Damien Caine · 05-02-2009, 09:35 AM

Odd, it was explained to me once that this was how a carcinogen behaved.

The term carcinogen refers to any substance, radionuclide or radiation that is an agent directly involved in the promotion of cancer or in the increase of its propagation

Yeah, I know wikipedia isn't a great source, but it works here. So, according to this nicotine is a 'whole nother non-carcinogen carcinogen'

Need more input!

OutWest · 05-02-2009, 09:48 AM

fwiw, from my understanding sugars also promote cancer cell growth. The reason why I say this is because when my father had lung cancer, one of the tests they gave him was a PET scan. How PET scans for cancer work is they inject radioactive glucose into the body, the cancer cells grab onto the glucose and thus they will show up on the PET scan. The doctor explained to him that cancer cells thrive on sugars and will gobble up all they can. It also explains why he was constantly craving foods loaded with sugar in the last couple of years of his life, when in the past he never had a sweet tooth.

05-02-2009, 06:01 AM	#1
MrHoyle Full Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: USA Posts: 14	How toxic is E-Liquid? Well friends... I just started refilling my own carts and I am always very careful about not getting the liquid on my skin, and always washing my hands after handling the stuff, but I can't help but wonder if I am being unnecessarily cautious. Occasionally some of the juice drips out the back of my supermini and I get it on my lips or in my mouth and I haven't gotten sick or anything yet. So the question is : How Toxic is E-Liquid? __________________ -MrHoyle

05-02-2009, 08:40 AM	#4
yvilla ECF Veteran Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 1,102	Another perspective: Toxic if ingested, sure. But, 36mg liquid is 3.6% nicotine in density. Thus, those drops on your hand have, you guessed it, 3.6% nicotine. The other 96.4% of the drops is composed of propylene glycol, water, flavors. No big deal. I get it all over myself, and simply wipe off with whatever is handy. __________________ _____Non-Affiliated FanGirl_____

05-02-2009, 09:14 AM	#7
rlorange Full Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 141	It is probably best to consider the toxicity of the separate components of e-liquid separately. The combined toxicity is perhaps unknown but I think it is safe to say that at the quantities consumed e-liquid is safe. Propylene Glycol. The lethal dose is more that 1.5liters consumed at one time! the amount consumed by a heavy vaper is close to the WHO recommended daily max intake. Bear in mind that this figure is highly conservative so it is unlikely that an average young and healthy user would experience any toxicity processing and eliminating the PG. If you look at the MSDS for PG the only concern really is chronic low irritation of the mucus membranes from inhalation. Considering most vapers are ex-somokers this is of little concern because this irritation is a million times less harmfull from smoking. Nicotine: As we all know Nicotine is VERY toxic, 30mg in a single dose is enough to kill! HAving said that the small does we ingest from smoking (or vaping) is not particularly harmful, perhaps no more than several strong coffees a day... Nicotine will irritate the lungs and throat however. The big unknown.... I am referring to the tobacco essence and flavorings combined with PG and heat from vaporizing coil. Clearly the black atomizer killing residue is evidence of heat induced chemical reactions which may be synthesising toxic compounds. A very toxic reaction product from Glycerine (VG) under heat is possible (See the thread 'The Acrolein problem'). I have had a mild allergic reaction to one particular e-liquid 36mg Turkish Blended which is relatively dark brown and has a lot of tobacco essence in it.... Tobacco essence liquids are likely to be more toxic than the other flavours Best remember that consuming e-liquid while vaping will put a substantial load on the body. It will definitely work every organ in your body and combined with the rest of life's exceses this load itself may be considered mildly toxic. Again I mention that one needs to compare it with the undisputed toxicity of smoking. As for skin contact with e-liquid... nothing to worry about as long as you wash it off, you would need to drip a half a ml on your skin and leave it there for a day before enough nicotine gets into your blood to cause concern. For comparison a nicotine patch has 100+mg in contact with your skin and over 24hrs only 21mg is absorbed. Final important point, not all of the nicotine from vaping is absorbed. The heat from an e-cig will destroy some and much is exhaled, also like any alkaloid in its acidic form it is far less absorbable than its basic form. This is the same reason why powdered cocaine is so different (and less potent) than crack cocaine, the latter being basic. Tobacco companies free-base the nicotine so it is more potent, if you don't believe me then buy a pack of unprocessed 'American spirit' brand cigarettes and compare the 'hit' with regular cigs. It is far less potent, there is no difference in the quantity of nicotine just its chemical structure. e-liquid contains the less potent acidic form. From personal experience I believe the nicotine in e-liquid is maybe half or less as potent, so maybe 3mg of nicotine from e-smoking is equivalent to the 1-1.2mg absorbed from a regular cigarette Last edited by rlorange; 05-02-2009 at 09:44 AM. Reason: more info

05-02-2009, 09:30 AM	#8
Harry Crazington Re Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 231	There is however another frequently overlooked form of nicotine toxicity.... Nicotine Speeds Lung Cancer Nicotine Plugs Directly Into Lung Cells, Tells Tumors to Grow By Daniel J. DeNoon WebMD Health News Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD July 20, 2006 -- Nicotine directly speeds the growth of lung cancer, University of South Florida researchers report. Tobacco smoke contains agents that cause cancer. But nicotine itself isn't one of them. Instead, nicotine promotes the growth of existing cancer cells. Exactly how nicotine does this is now becoming clear: It plugs directly into lung cells, where it jump-starts the cells' growth machinery. If those cells are cancerous, nicotine makes them grow wildly. "These events can be expected to contribute to the growth and progression of tumors exposed to nicotine through tobacco smoke or cigarette substitutes," suggest Piyali Dasgupta, PhD, and colleagues at H. Lee Moffitt Cancer Center, USF, Tampa, Fla. Dasgupta and colleagues found that nicotine plugs into receptors called nicotinic acetylcholine receptors or nAChRs. These receptors are found throughout the body. The finding may help explain why chemotherapy for breast cancer is less effective in smokers and why cigarette smoke helps many different kinds of cancer grow. The study appears in the August issue of the Journal of Clinical Investigation. Last edited by Harry Crazington; 05-02-2009 at 09:33 AM.

05-02-2009, 09:48 AM	#10
OutWest USA Supplier Forum Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,217	fwiw, from my understanding sugars also promote cancer cell growth. The reason why I say this is because when my father had lung cancer, one of the tests they gave him was a PET scan. How PET scans for cancer work is they inject radioactive glucose into the body, the cancer cells grab onto the glucose and thus they will show up on the PET scan. The doctor explained to him that cancer cells thrive on sugars and will gobble up all they can. It also explains why he was constantly craving foods loaded with sugar in the last couple of years of his life, when in the past he never had a sweet tooth. __________________ eLiquid (11mg - 36mg strengths) & DSE901 Electronic Cigarettes and Parts Get 5% off with coupon code: ecf5 Worldwide shipping!

05-02-2009, 08:32 AM	#3
kyle82 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3	wow. what exactly is an e-liquid? another form of nicotine intake? how does it goes guys? and you said it's flammable?? would that be an awful alternative for cigarette.. whuuush..

05-02-2009, 08:52 AM	#6
Reverend Damien Caine Supporting Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Clarksville TN USA Posts: 58	It's really hard to gauge the toxicity of e-liquid, almost everyone on here seems to assume that pure undiluted nicotine is used in the mix, none of the Chinese fluid is made with 100% nicotine, the measurement Xmg/mL is inaccurate as the measure of nicotine is actually from a solution of nicotine and water. Nicotine, being completely water soluble is not measured or confirmed before production of e-liquid. Regardless of this information, it is quite difficult to poison yourself while refilling a cart (I will tell you through, a freak accident, it burns like hell if its sprayed in your eyes) Interesting fact, nicotine extraction is usually clear, as it oxidizes, it turns a darker shade of brown, Even completely sealed nicotine solution tends to break down due to the oxidation from the water within the solution, this is usually stopped with liquid nitrogen containment, around −196 °C, which of course virtually stops any chemical change within the solution.

05-02-2009, 09:35 AM	#9
Reverend Damien Caine Supporting Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Clarksville TN USA Posts: 58	Odd, it was explained to me once that this was how a carcinogen behaved. The term carcinogen* refers to any substance, radionuclide or radiation that is an agent directly involved in the promotion of cancer or in the increase of its propagation* Yeah, I know wikipedia isn't a great source, but it works here. So, according to this nicotine is a 'whole nother non-carcinogen carcinogen' Need more input!

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