MAO Inhibitors

[gatsby]

I've been reading a fair bit about the biochemical aspects of cigarette addiction.

The maximum effect from a puff on a cigarette occurs in 10 to 20 seconds.

The maximum effect from a puff on an e-cig occurs in about a minute.

I suspect that this difference is a large part of the "what's missing" question.

Thats interesting. I am not sure about the 'whats missing', but that would certainly explain why an experienced nicotine addict like myself (and others) felt nicotine OD effects even with the reported lower absorption rates reported for vaping when I first started. Personally I don't think they need to change anything since I adapted after a while and now I don't feel any where near as frantic about nicotine as I did when I smoked. Personally I prefer it that way. Also my mildly educated guess about the spectrum of nicotine addiction is that it is just good old associative learning which is a very powerful albeit simple mechanism.

[Mister]

Also my mildly educated guess about the spectrum of nicotine addiction is that it is just good old associative learning which is a very powerful albeit simple mechanism.

I think that's a good guess, it does seem likely that the same mechanism is at work. I don't think it is a simple one chemically. (I know that you said that in a conceptual sense and I agree.)

It may be that Pavlov's dog not only salivated to the ringing of the bell (ok, metronome etc. for purists), but that the dog also experienced greater enjoyment of subsequent meals which were accompanied by the bell.

[ladyraj]

I think that's a good guess, it does seem likely that the same mechanism is at work. I don't think it is a simple one chemically. (I know that you said that in a conceptual sense and I agree.)

It may be that Pavlov's dog not only salivated to the ringing of the bell (ok, metronome etc. for purists), but that the dog also experienced greater enjoyment of subsequent meals which were accompanied by the bell.

Using the Pavlov scenario...in smoking/vaping what is the primary and secondary association?

[gatsby]

Using the Pavlov scenario...in smoking/vaping what is the primary and secondary association?

I would suggest that the nicotine rush is the UCS so anything that has a near 100% co-occurrence with that rush is a primary CS. The inhale, smoke, throat hit all qualify and might explain why these things are all so important to us even though they might actually be considered noxious to others. When you think about a better PV/liquid combination wouldn't need to burn your throat and produce obvious vapor, but we seek these out like they are the drug we crave. Secondary and so on would be a complex stimulus set that includes the presence of the cigarette/PV, holding something in your hand, and all those habitual and ritual processes you go through including time of day, location etc. This is why when I was smoking I would flick my lighter even when I couldn't use it or why you might feel better just holding your PV. Now the tricky thing is that these actions might very well start releasing dopamine naturally since it is implicated in the 'reward' circuit' and over time might become primary CSs. All of this adds to the complexity of addiction as a suite of behaviors beyond simple craving for the drug. Of curse none of this applies to me because I only smoked and now vape because it makes me feel cool and look grown up.

[gatsby]

I think that's a good guess, it does seem likely that the same mechanism is at work. I don't think it is a simple one chemically. (I know that you said that in a conceptual sense and I agree.)

It may be that Pavlov's dog not only salivated to the ringing of the bell (ok, metronome etc. for purists), but that the dog also experienced greater enjoyment of subsequent meals which were accompanied by the bell.

I am sure that if Pavlov's dogs (also for purists) spent a 1/4 of there life expectancy eating with metronomes the meals without them would be lacking.

Also I feel like kicking myself for even saying it is simple because I spend a good part of my day discussing how the emergent properties of 'simple' associative and probabilistic learning affect complex behaviors (trust me even if that sounds interesting it is not). Honestly though when you look at the perfect storm of habitual behavior and chemistry involved in tobacco use it is amazing anyone ever quits.

[Mister]

Also my mildly educated guess about the spectrum of nicotine addiction is ...

Something about your subsequent posts makes me think that was quite a modest statement

Of course none of this applies to me because I only smoked and now vape because it makes me feel cool and look grown up.

ROFL! Me too, me too

Honestly though when you look at the perfect storm of habitual behavior and chemistry involved in tobacco use it is amazing anyone ever quits.

Very nicely put. Thanks for your insights gatsby!

[rengic]

There was someone on here a while back (Satire) that was going to experiment with concocting liquid with an inhibitor. Unfortunately, it appears he feel off the grid shortly after stating he was near completion (hope the two aren't related!)

Vaping is not a complete substitute for tobacco smoking

[Kurt]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't MAO inhibitors occur naturally in tobacco?

I quit smoking less than a week ago, but i've always thought that if time proves it to be difficult, taking a low-dose MAOI would be worth a try.

I believe this is true, given the Ruyan test results. I don't know the actual action of the MAOIs, but given that nicotine is an amine prone to oxidation to cotamine, and given that nicotine is the plant's nature pesticide, it would certianly stand to reason the plant would try to inhibit oxidation of nicotine for its own protection. So whether BT adds them or they are naturally occuring in the plant, preserving nicotine as the free base is to both's advantage.

That said, MAOI's as antidepressants have a very long history. Side effects are anticholinergic, affecting the colon by relaxing smooth muscles. Also mood stabilization. The neurons morph in order to accommodate the long term usage of these drugs, thus creating not just a psychological addiction, but physical as well. How many here have suffered constipation after getting off of analogs, which is relieved by having a smoke? Cholinergic neurons are everywhere in body and brain. Aetylcholine is what nicotine mimics. In the brain this translates into a lighting up of all the higher thinking centers.

I believe the initial discomfort from stopping smoking is as much MAOI withdrawal as nicotine withdrawal. And this is a large part of the "what's missing" in vaping. Once you get past MAOI withdrawals, analogs are far less tempting.

Perhaps a low dose of an MAOI along with vaping would alleviate this problem.

I also think the rapid effect of smoking compared to vaping is largely due to what I call the "carbon monoxide clunk". Slight disorientation can be confused with an actual drug effect time. Also the nicotine adheres to smoke particles, which, unlike a vapor condensing mostly into the mouth and throat, are carried deeper into the lungs.

I am still grappling with the large difference in overall nicotine absorption from vaping compared to smoking, which is about 1:10, even with 36 mg vaping. I suspect that somehow nicotine from smoke is not as readily converted to cotamine as nic in a vapor, and that it is not really a difference in absorption, but rather nicotine from vaping is simply oxidized more easliy. Thus more similar amounts of cotamine with vaping and smoking (although smoking is still more), but a huge difference in nicotine free base itself. Mouth and throat absorption is more prone to normal metabolism to cotamine and B-3 niacin, but directly through the lungs goes into the blood too fast for these metabolites to form.

Just my thoughts. Comments welcome.
k

[Jherek]

Kurt wrote:

"I believe the initial discomfort from stopping smoking is as much MAOI withdrawal as nicotine withdrawal. And this is a large part of the "what's missing" in vaping. Once you get past MAOI withdrawals, analogs are far less tempting.

Perhaps a low dose of an MAOI along with vaping would alleviate this problem."


The naturally occurring MAOI in tobacco is harmine, a selective MAO-A, as opposed to non-selective MAOIs, like prescription Nardil or Parnate. Prescription MAOIs have been used for years as anti-smoking drugs, but these non-selective MAOIs have vicious side-effects and potentially lethel interactions with a variety of other medications and common foods, unlike harmine.

Harmine also occurs naturally in passion flower, an herb used for anxiety. Perhaps, passion flower taken as a tea or otherwise, could be used to wean off tobacco?

Two questions:

1. Is additional harmine and/or other MAOIs added to cigarettes by BT?

2. Could harmine be, in part, responsible for the sexual dysfunction, et cetera, caused by smoking? The non-selective MAOIs are known to cause sexual problems.

[frankie1]

This thread has been helpful as I have not been able to give up my last 4-5 analogs per day. I think I will try to harmine in tea concept. I have some Wellbutrin that was prescribed and I never used. I might try taking that and vaping. I just wonder how hard it is to quit the Wellbutrin. Also, I wonder about other herbs. There was one that was popular a few years ago...a mood enhancer, but I cannot remember the name. Does anyone else remember? There was a big thing about it because claims were being made about it's antidepressant effects and the FDA got involved. Was it Echinacea?