Nicotine measurements

**SpaceCadet** · 01-24-2009, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by TropicalBob

With pressure on smokers ratcheting up from employers, I expect to see home cotinine test kits in my drugstores soon.

I read somewhere else about this employer testing of cotinine, and that is ridiculous considering the use of NRT and smokeless tobacco among quitters. So they hate ex-smokers too?! They should be testing CO, like in UK smoking cessation programmes. Testing for CO actually saved a woman's life - she had genuinely quit but had the CO levels of a heavy smoker. Turned out she was being poisoned by her heating or something!

**Myk** · 01-25-2009, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kate

You make a lot of assumptions Myk, you don't even know which cases of overdose I'm thinking of.

I don't think there is much that can be done in severe overdose cases apart from maintaining breathing and cardiac function.

Your own experience doesn't account for the range of everyone elses here, your theories are no better. If someone says they have been diagnosed as having taken a nicotine overdose by a doctor why do you think they would lie?

LOL, I've read your posts and have seen the links you've made. I've also searched the forums myself.
I know of 2 of the cases you're thinking of when you talk about hospitalization because YOU have linked them. You've mentioned that there were 3, that leaves only 1 I do not know about.

Problem is I haven't seen these posts where the patient said they were diagnosed with nicotine poisoning in the 2 out of 3 posts you often mention.
That is the assumption I see being made here, "even ended up in hospital with medically diagnosed nicotine overdose"
If they actually were tested wouldn't that be the blood tests that we want????
Because the doctor told them to lay off what the patient suspects is the problem I've seen people who are overly paranoid about nicotine jump to the conclusion that the doctor diagnosed it as nicotine poisoning. It's akin to "it hurts when I do this.", "then stop doing that."

I've seen some posts where it was obvious people had OD'ed on nicotine. I've also seen a lot of posts that have blamed everything under the sun on nicotine.
That range is the problem. Things attributed to nicotine poisoning around here do not follow the pattern for nicotine poisoning. Ever read new medicine studies and understand the reports from the drug and control groups? Since we don't really need a control group for nicotine since it's been around for a very long time I'm throwing out the things that don't fit with what we know about the many forms of nicotine. What you are doing is accepting everything without a control group.

I'm not saying it's not nicotine, in fact I got my 0mg and am really starting to wonder what type of nicotine is in the vapor. I would like to know if it's what is found in tobacco smoke or pure nicotine which is poison to everything including the plants it can be extracted from or if it's some other nicotine derivative that could be causing the non-standard poisoning symptoms.

You don't think there is much that can be done for a severe case of nicotine poisoning and you obviously don't think anything would be done for a minor case, so why bother telling anyone to go to a doctor?
What's up with the list of treatments for nicotine poisoning if there's no treatment? They're definitely not placebos.

Originally Posted by GabbyD

I'd buy a kit locally too, if it was cheap enough. I'm curious. I have some smoking friends I could get to do it for comparison. Not a big study with a control group, but I'm curious enough to spend a few bucks.

As for me, the couple of times I felt like I must have overdone it with the nicotine, I didn't get a headache. And I suffer from panic attacks but it wasn't at all like that either. It's hard to really put into words, but believe me I can tell the difference. I wasn't reaching for the xanax bottle when it happened. It felt nothing like that. My husband (who I hadn't told about it) even remarked a little while later that my hands were shaking. So, who knows, but I did start paying more attention to how much I was vaping. It's fun and I like it and I can do it inside and it's easy to sit here watching TV or playing on the computer and just keep puffing without realizing it. There's no "end" like with a cigarette.

That's interesting. I can easily turn too much coffee into a series of panic attacks.
Did that feeling last? It took me days of not vaping to get over my 'panicky' feelings although the actual attacks were comparatively short lived.

I know it's not tobacco nicotine poisoning because to stay cut back on cigarettes I've been hitting pipes and cigars hard and pushing OD levels.
Maybe the nicotine from vaping is more of an upper than what's in tobacco smoke, or maybe it's something else in the vapor (except no problems with the 0mg ... yet).

**Kate** · 01-25-2009, 03:07 PM

Interesting analysis Myk, not the one I'd make but we all have our own ways of seeing things. Has it occurred to you that panic attacks are rarely mentioned by anyone else here? You are one of maybe two or three people I've heard of who have them and think it's something to do with vaping. Didn't you say you were prone to them anyway? You may not trust doctors but for what it's worth I believe a good one would advise that your vulnerability makes it especially important to take stimulants responsibly.

Where is the list of treatments for nicotine poisoning you are referring to?

**Myk** · 01-25-2009, 03:45 PM

I realize that which is why I'm not jumping to the conclusion that the e-liquid has anything to do with the panic, at least not physically. But not jumping to the conclusion doesn't mean I should rule it out any more than I looked at my caffeine intake.
You do realize that a lot more people have panic than know it don't you? I had it for over half of my life not knowing what it was and going through all kinds of medical tests. And you know that you don't need panic disorder to experience panic and think that it's something else?
At least one of the posts I've seen that ended with a doctor visit fit panic perfectly and it was all but confirmed with the fact that there was no treatment for poisoning.

I know I am prone to them and that is why it is just as likely that I can't wrap my head around trusting China not to be poisoning either through accident, ignorance or malice. It could also be that the PG/VG is heavy on my lungs and makes breathing not so easy.
Being prone to them is also why I wonder if this nicotine is a different form that is more stimulating than what is in smoke since I smoke because of the panic. And when having vaping panic (no matter what the physical cause) cigarettes did help.

The drug and chemical sheets have the treatments. That's where I got the partial list from above.

Management of Nicotine Poisoning
Other supportive measures include diazepam or barbiturates for seizures, atropine for
excessive bronchial secretions or diarrhea, respiratory support for respiratory failure,
and vigorous fluid support for hypotension and cardiovascular collapse.

http://media.pfizer.com/files/products/ppi_nicotrol.pdf

This page covers a lot of treatments.
Acute nicotine toxicity
If these "hospitalizations" were anything but minor they would've been put on a heart monitor, because like you said, the main treatment is to treat the symptoms. At least in the US if you go in and mention a heart problem you are getting checked out unless they are assured it is nothing.

**Kate** · 01-25-2009, 03:59 PM

Yeah, we're in the dark over a lot of symptoms vapers experience. Until we have proper studies we can only guess what's going on.

Mild, moderate or serious poisoning - who is qualified to make a diagnosis? Certainly not us on the forum, we can only speculate.

There really isn't much that can be done for nicotine poisoning apart from keeping vital functions operating. Advising someone with symptoms of overdose that it's pointless to go to see a professional medic could be a death sentence.

Here is some more information about nicotine -

Nicotine Safety - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site and forum* Le site de la cigarette électronique

The Emergency Response Safety and Health Database: Systemic Agent: NICOTINE

**Myk** · 01-25-2009, 04:24 PM

Advising someone with symptoms of overdose that it's pointless to go to see a professional medic could be a death sentence.

Although we're inhaling an unknown (untested/qualified form of nicotine) in an unusual form (vapor instead of smoke) it is extremely unlikely to get a death sentence from inhalation unless this is not a normal form of nicotine.

I think the only people who have died from smoke inhalation nicotine poisoning were those who were forced to continue inhaling after their body said stop and those with heart problems. I have never heard anything like that either anecdotally or in the news.

But since this is vapor it could be more like inhaling a sprayer full of Black Leaf. And since it's carried in an oil-like base it could take longer to get into your body so it could build up and hit progressively.
That is why I would stick with, "If you have a headache lay down and sleep it off. If you're having heart or breathing problems go to a doctor."
Go to the doctor because you smoked a cigar too fast and got a headache or barfed is not rational.

**Kate** · 01-25-2009, 04:39 PM

As you say, individuals have to judge for themselves how serious they think it is.

We don't know what sort of nicotine we're getting, how it is absorbed, how it accumulates nor how long it lasts.

**GabbyD** · 01-26-2009, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Myk

That's interesting. I can easily turn too much coffee into a series of panic attacks.
Did that feeling last? It took me days of not vaping to get over my 'panicky' feelings although the actual attacks were comparatively short lived.

I know it's not tobacco nicotine poisoning because to stay cut back on cigarettes I've been hitting pipes and cigars hard and pushing OD levels.
Maybe the nicotine from vaping is more of an upper than what's in tobacco smoke, or maybe it's something else in the vapor (except no problems with the 0mg ... yet).

I know what you mean about the coffee thing. I can too. If I'm feeling off that morning, I've learned to say no to the coffee. (which just about kills me because I looooove my coffee!)

My jittery feelings with vaping were pretty short-lived. Maybe a couple of hours or so and I'd level off. It happened only two or three times, when I was new to it. It could be something else in the mix and not the nicotine. I was just making an assumption there. I also wondered if it was nicotine withdrawl, as I've read that can cause nervousness type symptoms too. Catch-22! At the time this happened with me, I was one who just started vaping and immediately cut down from a pack and a half to like 3-4 cigs per day. It's hard to say what exactly was happening there. I just thought maybe I had taken in too much nicotine but I suppose it could be the exact opposite???

**Denni** · 01-26-2009, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Kate

Interesting analysis Myk, not the one I'd make but we all have our own ways of seeing things. Has it occurred to you that panic attacks are rarely mentioned by anyone else here? You are one of maybe two or three people I've heard of who have them and think it's something to do with vaping. Didn't you say you were prone to them anyway? You may not trust doctors but for what it's worth I believe a good one would advise that your vulnerability makes it especially important to take stimulants responsibly.

Where is the list of treatments for nicotine poisoning you are referring to?

I'm suffering from panic attacks too, kudos for GabbyD for mentioning this

I don't get them at all from vaping, but coffee makes me jittery. Saying that, not even caffeine has triggered an outright attack so far, although it makes me more prone to them.

Sadly, travelling does trigger them