So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[Vaporer]

Twisted,
Congrats on the drop. Big step down.
Might be a week to regulate your system, but hang on if you can.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Naw, my procedure was quite a bit more "scientific" than that.

The strainer was a beaker with glass wool over it, the cauldron was a separatory funnel, and the stew was tobacco extract with the appropriate solvents. But I did stir it with a broom, if that makes you feel better.

Yeh, Mom used to do that, too. Helps to build my confidence in you.

[IANAN]

I wonder sometimes if some of the folks here actually read (or at least browse) the entire thread?

I would say that many would tune a good portion of it out. You have done an excellent job simplifying but; MOA inhibitors, USP, the effects of MOAIs, and extraction processes aren't exactly taught outside of certain technical fields... Basically to follow the entire thread you would need to know more than the common bear about chemistry and clinical psychology/pharmacology.

Anyhow.... several years ago RJRt and PM (Big tobacco companies) released two products that were safer smoking devices. One electronically warmed tobacco in glycerin while another used a rather unique "lit" heater to do the same. As far as I know the PM product can no longer be obtained easily but several stores do still carry the RJRt (I suspect they may be back-stock that is just sitting there) product.... The long and the short was I obtained a supply of the RJRt Eclipse product and wanted to see if vaping + this product would curb the crave. It in fact did curb the crave (So I wouldn't count Co out completely).

But for the non-chemist out there Snus Juice (Something you could probably make at home easily- search youtube for it) and the soaking Snus in glycerin and putting it in your E-Cig should work similar to the RJRt/PM products...

More or less the proposal is looking at a cleaner version of what the tobacco companies did but not to produce such a clean extracted product as is found in the Nicotine E-Fluid or other NRTs, which is hypothesized to be so clean that the other Alkaloids, critical to curb the addiction other than Nicotine, have also been removed .

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Twisted,
Congrats on the drop. Big step down.
Might be a week to regulate your system, but hang on if you can.

Toenails are dug in, lost all the fingernails, but still hanging ok. Thanks for the supportive words. I don't think my wife likes me anymore and the dog keeps growling move.

[kinabaloo]

More or less the proposal is looking at a cleaner version of what the tobacco companies did but not to produce such a clean extracted product as is found in the Nicotine E-Fluid or other NRTs, which is hypothesized to be so clean that the other Alkaloids, critical to curb the addiction other than Nicotine, have also been removed .

It is no less 'clean' or less pure !
This is completely different from soaking some snus in VG, PGA and distilled water.

Extracting all the alkaloids (and nothing else) can be done to a high level of purity. So people don't get the wrong idea, this is not a less pure extraction - it is just as pure, but extracting a range rather than a single element. Can be done just as precisely.

[IANAN]

By clean I mean a more exact extraction without anything we don't want... it is currently unknown exactly which Alkaloids are wanted... or if there is another synergistic, additive, or potentiating interaction by some other of the 4,000 chemicals in the tobacco smoke. My money, with the Ruyan HealthNz results, is that there is some potentiating interaction...

We know we don't want the tar and a bunch of the carcinogens in tobacco.

Anyhow they (RJRT and the Goberment FDA) tested the Eclipse and the harm profile, if used correctly, was reduced by an estimated 70%. The problem with it was that the heat applied was dependent on how hard the user drew on the device. The deeper the draw the hotter it became- hot enough to burn the glycerin in the device.... releasing carcinogens.... there were very few indicators that the user could use to tell that they were drawing to hard. Anyhow soaking the Snus in VG and using a PV that has more control over the max temperature should result in the same harm reduction profile. Likewise making Snus Juice should also result in this same harm profile assuming the user does not heat the VG beyond the optimal temperature.

[DVap]

It is no less 'clean' or less pure !
This is completely different from soaking some snus in VG, PGA and distilled water.

Extracting all the alkaloids (and nothing else) can be done to a high level of purity. So people don't get the wrong idea, this is not a less pure extraction - it is just as pure, but extracting a range rather than a single element. Can be done just as precisely.

What I have done is taken advantage of the behavior of alkaloids in solution and their solubility characteristics at low vs high pH. At acidic (low) pH, they form water soluble salts, at basic (high) pH, they form organic soluble unprotonated bases. By sending the alkaloids back and forth between the aqueous and organic phases everything else gets left behind in the phase that does not contain the alkaloids. Most components of tobacco do not behave like alkaloids, and can be trapped in one or the other of the discard phases. By sending the alkaloids back and forth between the acid and base state multiple times, a high purity is achieved. Of course, ultra high purity solvents are required as well. It wouldn't do to pick up paint stripper or brush cleaning fluid at the hardware store.

What I have are certainly the tobacco alkaloids, probably the entire spread, along with any other basic material that would partition to the organic phase versus water... so I imagine the TSNA's are still there, but they are also present in eliquids, patches, gums, etc.

Have I characterized the extraction product completely? No.
Is there anything in the extract that's not in tobacco? No.
Is there anything in tobacco that's not in the extract? Damned nearly everything.

So, you're probably asking, "How is it? Have you vaped it?". Well, first of all, FDA... you're welcome to bite it. I'm not doing anything illegal, at least not yet, you conflict-of-interest addled hypocrites. I could have put together a better study than you guys did while I was still in school.

Now where was I?

Oh, I exhaustively removed the solvent remnants, and mixed the alkaloids down to 22.5 mg/mL in 50/50 PG/VG, probably around 20 mg/mL nicotine and 2.5 mg/mL other tobacco alkaloids. The liquid is clear at this level. Vaping this on a 3.6 volt Chuck (actually 4.1 volts), it hits the throat like a velvet glove (wrapped around an anvil). The throat hit is very much like an analog, impressively like an analog!

I really should have mixed it down to 12 - 15 mg/mL to match my normal vaping level. Still, the throat hit would be fantastic compared to normal eliquid.

Lately, I've vaped about 2.5 mL of 12 mg eliquid per day (30 mg nicotine). After 2 days with the alkaloid liquid, I've vaped 1.8 mL out of the 3 mL I made in advance of the rest. That's 18 mg of nicotine/day compared to my regular 30 mg nicotine/day. I usually vape my 2.5 mL/day of regular eliquid like clockwork. So why I am I suddenly vaping only 60% of the nicotine I normally do? Am I getting... something else?

I'm not one of those folks who don't get any satisfaction from vaping, so I'm not the best person to evaluate if this stuff provides what seems to be missing for many people. I will say that this stuff mellows me out, I enjoy it much more than regular liquid, and I vape less of it. Placebo effect due to me wanting it to work?

I do believe that if somebody could competently produce and market full alkaloid e-liquid, they could make a bundle. Does this raise new concerns over what we'd get from such a liquid? Or course, but still, there's nothing present that folks don't already get via analogs along with those 4,000 other compounds. Would the FDA go apoplectic to learn that folks who are hopelessly addicted to analogs might find such a liquid to do the trick? I believe they would. This would not fit in well with their "Quit or die" mentality.

[olderthandirt]

I've been following this thread since trog first started it DVap. This last post is a dilly!

You are expecting offers of guinea pigs no doubt? And remember, the black helicopters are quiet!

[IANAN]

Just tell the FDA to stick it ... in their pipe- and smoke it

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Dvap, my hero. Sounds as if maybe you've brewed (do I dare say?) an actual replacement for cigarettes...mmmm. This could lead to trouble if the secret gets out. I'm so excited I think I was able to feel your mellowness. We need to keep this under wraps. I'll search e-bay for a long fire hose and we could bury it between your house and mine and nobody has to know. Somebody needs to delete this thread. Shhh! Someone might hear us.