So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[IANAN]

Oh.they know they are there and what they do. They've admitted to changing them for effect.
It takes some net surfing , but there are partial lists posted of additives. Start looking them up and thier effects. What they form and the way they interact is listed in some online reports. That's what they let out. Makes you wonder what they didn't.

If they know then its probably some potentiating interaction or synergistic interaction that either makes the Nicotine like 200X more addictive or is bad for your health (Or other such side effect) and the gubermental types would be down on them hard like a grand piano dropped off the Sears tower.... I don't buy into the notion that all tobacco execs are monsters or demons with so few scruples that they all don't care if their customers die young-- If they all were then none of them would have even tried to produce a reduced harm cig in the first place.

[frankie1]

Dvap: Thank you so much for your research. I won't pretend to clearly understand everything you did, but I get the general idea and I really think you are onto something! It very well may be THE answer. I am concerned however, that the FDA will seek even tighter restrictions because they might deem the MOAIs left in as a drug. I would of course see this as I do nicotine, it is a drug, but a commonly used one. I think the antis would squeal to high heaven that we are now using the ecig as a drug delivery device! But, it is likely the only way to make the PV an effective device for many. I agree that this needs to be done in the beginning, because anything changed in the liquid is likely to meet even more opposition.

Does anyone think a liquid manufacturer may pick up on this idea? Or are you going into production, Dvap? LOL

[kinabaloo]

There are MAOIs in tea, and lots of plant foods in fact; and a normal part of brain chemistry. It's no big deal in terms of regulation, just what was in the tobacco, minus all the bad stuff.

There is something of the dihydrogen oxide, fear of long chemical names going on!

Even NRTs should be composed 'correctly' and will then be much more effective.

That's what we all want, isn't it?

Greater efficacy; works for more people, and nearly everyone feels they can vape less.

Let's not forget, one of the main concerns about e-cigs, besides are they safe, is do they work?

So, a change for the better? Absolutely!

[IANAN]

Phillip Morris already did

Anyhow a really good and mostly balanced article was published in 2005 by the LA Times... A google cached copy is here; The Mystery of Philip Morris' Nicotine Inhaler - Los Angeles Times

The ANTi's response to BT's development of cleaner nicotine was here GLOBALink: Philip Morris Develops Accord, A New "Low-Smoke" Cigarette Brand BTW this is also their stance on e-cigs. Bunch of horses rears if you ask me.

It's not that the tobacco companies want to feel more virtuous... Its more that they really do care through a combination of the fact that customers buried 6 feet deep in the ground can't purchase their products, some either personally use the product or have relatives whom do, and some really do actually give a hoot about thier customers.

Anyhow has anyone looked at the particle size of the Nicotine instead of the MOAIs?? The Health NZ study showed we were getting Nicotine into our blood- but only 10% of what we inhaled was getting tthere Vs. what was puffed from a traditional cig.

It could be a combination of that + another chemical, other than nicotine, in the tobacco that is the cause.

Warming straight tobacco soaked in glycerin or PG and inhaling it then measuring Nicotene levels (Eg; the Snus vaping) could give the answer....

[kinabaloo]

Ianan - too many things to pick up on here! So I hope you will quietly do some more reading

Just mention this one point (again): nicotine is one of many alkaloids; some alkoloids are (act as) MAOIs. Nicotine and the MAOIs in tobacco are not two completely different things, they are of the same family (alkaloids).

[olderthandirt]

Oh.they know they are there and what they do. They've admitted to changing them for effect.
....The latest is a fire retardent in the paper. Someone found the report and its on You Tube showing a RYO and a standard analog. It will not stay lit unless puffed fairly regular.
Supposed to help prevent fires from falling asleep with them.
Glad I'm off analogs........my lungs didnt need put out or any more of thier help.

What's so funny about that is I fully recall when I started rolling my own some 15yrs back. I was thrilled that the things would go out if un-attended for a few minutes compared to the tailor-mades burning as though there was an accelerant in 'em. Would enjoy reading through a few reports re. the naturally occuring MAOI's if I could find something written for a layman.

A pizza, say, is not much of a pizza if it's only dough, even if that is the main part. E-liquids followed the error of NRT products in just equating smoking with nicotine. As one can tell from the words of DVap, the sister alkaloids might be small in quantity, but important for the roundness. Just as seasoning makes the pizza.
...As I said before, this should pass testing for unreasonable toxicity just the same (no worse than NRTs, and that's 100s times better than analogs), so no problem...
The FDA, just like any other organisation, is not homogenous. We need to work with all people who are willing to listen, and win the argument with science and logic and cool-heads.

....

Kin there are time your articles leave me so far behind it's nothing short of sad. This most recent one, pizza analogy is great, is a great read. The simple guy, me, followed what you presented.

...
kin, feel free to refer to it as proof of concept research. Hell, come up with an abstract if you want, just run it by me first...As for credit, I'm not big on having my name in lights, so I'll be happy to remain, "A U.S. chemist".

.... I don't buy into the notion that all tobacco execs are monsters or demons with so few scruples that they all don't care if their customers die young-- If they all were then none of them would have even tried to produce a reduced harm cig in the first place.

I agree with IANAN that the execs aren't necessarily monsters, their just accomplished business people. As I'm reading through this morning and formulating my replies to ya'll it occurs to me that being the good business folks they are possibly explains BT's "success" with NRT's. They knew full well going that they wouldn't work, nicotine only, but hey public we're trying. And the analog sales keep on keepin' on. My turn for a light bulb over my head...

...I think the antis would squeal to high heaven that we are now using the ecig as a drug delivery device! ...

They already do frankie, those silly twits

....
Even NRTs should be composed 'correctly' and will very likely be more effective.

That's what we all want, isn't it?

Whatever works to keep me from smoking! I am finding an almost hedonistic pleasure from the snus though..... Macchiato, ahhhhh macchiato

[IANAN]

Kin-- I bring this up, and I did read DVap's early reply to the 10% mark, as this is what was in this report; http://www.healthnz.co.nz/DublinEcigBenchtopHandout.pdf

Nicotine delivery per puff A 35 mL puff from
the Ruyan® V8 delivers only 10% of the nicotine
obtained from a similar puff of a Marlboro regular
cigarette. Deeper 50 mL puffs from the Ruyan V8
delivers only slightly more nicotine.

They also have some publications on how fast the e-smoke hits us Vs. regular smoke and BP's product- the Nicotrol Inhalar... It is here; http://www.healthnz.co.nz/ecig_effect-2.pdf

Over 60 minutes participants using the 16mg EC
experienced significantly less craving than when
using the placebo EC (mean difference 0.82; 95% C.I.
0.25–1.38; p=0.0061). Cigarette use reduced craving
more than the 16mg (difference 1.44; 95% CI 0.39 to
2.48) and 0mg (difference 2.23; 95% CI 1.17 to 3.30).
ECs and Nicorette® inhalator (difference 1.54 95%
CI 0.48 to 2.59) over the same period.
Compared to the 0mg EC and Nicorette® inhalator, the 16mg
EC rated lowest for irritability, restlessness, poor
concentration and need for a cigarette but these
differences were not significant. The EC was well-
tolerated, acceptable and had fewer adverse effects
than the inhalator. The 16mg EC delivered nicotine
more rapidly (mean tmax 19.4 minutes) than
Nicorette® inhalator (30 minutes) but not as rapidly
as cigarettes (14.3 min), which also gave the highest
cmax of nicotine (13.4 ng/ml), almost ten-fold that of
the 16mg EC (0.9 ng/ml), and Nicorette® inhalator
(1.8 ng/ml).

The Health Nz Ruyan reports also hypothesis, as we are, that MOAI's may be part of the equation here... I am curious though why PM looked at particle size though and I don't think it's any mistake that the Eclipse gets that hot and has slightly elevated CO levels. There has to be a reason why the Marlbro has the tmax of 14.3 minutes but the E-cig has a tmax of 19.4 minutes...

Hmmmm.... Wonder if Kava (Easily obtained) and/or Passion Flower extract while vaping would curb the craving 100% so I could kick tobacco???

[martha1014]

Summary of FDA Analyses


Three different electronic cigarette cartridges with the same label were tested and each cartridge emitted a markedly different amount of nicotine with each puff. The nicotine levels per puff ranged from 26.8 to 43.2 mcg nicotine/100 mL puff.
One high-nicotine cartridge delivered twice as much nicotine to users when the vapor from that electronic cigarette brand was inhaled than was delivered by a sample of the nicotine inhalation product (used as a control) approved by FDA for use as a smoking cessation aid.

If FDA results are accurate then we are getting more nicotine that we realize.

[IANAN]

Would enjoy reading through a few reports re. the naturally occuring MAOI's if I could find something written for a layman.

Harmine for sure is in tobacco;

Naturale sources for this include; Passion Flowers, Harmal (Plant), Caapi, Syrian Bean-caper, Oca, and Puke weed (Indian Tobacco).

A relativity easy to come by source of natural MOAI however is in Kava- It contains Desmethoxyyangonin.

[IANAN]

Summary of FDA Analyses


If FDA results are accurate then we are getting more nicotine that we realize.

No doubt about it- there is nicotine in the vapor and in the carts... the question is how much is being absorbed into bloodstream....

Is there another substance in tobacco smoke that would increase absorption?

Does the particle size of the vapor effect absorption rates (Both speed and amount going into the blood)?

In addition what are the effects of the MOAIs as far as how the nicotine effects our bodies (eg; does it boost the effect, increase the addiction, etc etc).