so are we getting it or are we not.. nicotine

[DVap]

Originally Posted by frankie1

I think the antis would squeal to high heaven that we are now using the ecig as a drug delivery device!

I'll not sugar-coat my opinion here...

The anti's have their heads so far up their asses that they're seeing daylight.

They are right, to a point. Once they push beyond that point, as many of them do, they quickly degenerate into sanctimonious jerk-offs.

[Vaporer]

Ianan,

I'm not demonizing BT execs. lol BT is one of the largest in Washington bringing in way more $ to coffers (no pun intended) than most. Laws in the 1930's were envoked to protect BT. They were meant to be irreversable because our country was founded so greatly on tobacco. In the 1990's the FDA tried them on and almost won in court. A 5/4 decision.
BT is a very protected entity. How many companies are allowed to make human consumables without listing thier ingredients and are known to cause cancer?

They are in business to make money. Make a product people prefer, want or need more than another. They just don't have to tell how. Actually, once a yr to the gov under a high confidentiality agreement.

They admit to taloring the product for the best or certain desired effects. Some effects they want to eliminate. Smashed tomatoes on crackers with cheese whiz isn't the best pizza.

Kin is right, there is so much reading to do. I'm not sure anyone can read it all.
You mention new plants now which do have MAOI's and effects, some psychoactive.
IMO better to find what you really desire, need, before jumping around other plants with totally diff alkaloid combinations.

[IANAN]

Anyhow - Dvap was asking earlier if they studied the MOA Inhibitors and Nicotine and there is quite a bit of research;

Monoamine Oxidase Inhibition Dramatically Increases the Motivation to Self-Administer Nicotine in Rats -- Guillem et al. 25 (38): 8593 -- Journal of Neuroscience
Inhibition of Monoamine Oxidases Desensitizes 5-HT1A Autoreceptors and Allows Nicotine to Induce a Neurochemical and Behavioral Sensitization -- Lanteri et al. 29 (4): 987 -- Journal of Neuroscience
Transient behavioral sensitization to nicotine bec... [Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2003] - PubMed result

Quit a bit more actually...

Tobacco's MOA inhibitors are harmala alkaloids... They are found in the plants I mentioned except Kava (Kava has a different family of MOAI).... All of them can be found in US herbal supplement stores ... Kava and Indian Tobacco have the most documented risk of the supplements.

Oh yeah and tobacco, unadulterated, has MOAI and is psychoactive.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Originally Posted by frankie1

I am concerned however, that the FDA will seek even tighter restrictions because they might deem the MOAIs left in as a drug. I would of course see this as I do nicotine, it is a drug, but a commonly used one. I think the antis would squeal to high heaven that we are now using the ecig as a drug delivery device! But, it is likely the only way to make the PV an effective device for many. I agree that this needs to be done in the beginning, because anything changed in the liquid is likely to meet even more opposition.

Does anyone think a liquid manufacturer may pick up on this idea? Or are you going into production, Dvap? LOL

I agree, frankie1 and Kin, that if Dvap's finding is the true missing link and manufactures can see the logic in revising their liquids or, at least, adding a line of "enhanced" liquids, it would be wise to get to market before the ecig becomes any more mainstream, due to higher scrutiny from FDA if added after the fact ( as we all know will come). The biggest problem I see here is how it would be presented. At present the ecig, while not marketed as an NRT, really is the most effective NRT out there. On the other hand, with alkaloids present to reproduce the psychological effect of analogs the addictive nature prevails and therefore probably forever retain it's listing in the "Banned" arena. I hope I don't sound nervous. I'm not, I just seem to flinch more these days. Hey olderthandirt, I'm glad you got a picture of those black helicopters, they only circle my house at night.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Originally Posted by IANAN

Anyhow - Dvap was asking earlier if they studied the MOA Inhibitors and Nicotine and there is quite a bit of research;

Monoamine Oxidase Inhibition Dramatically Increases the Motivation to Self-Administer Nicotine in Rats -- Guillem et al. 25 (38): 8593 -- Journal of Neuroscience
Inhibition of Monoamine Oxidases Desensitizes 5-HT1A Autoreceptors and Allows Nicotine to Induce a Neurochemical and Behavioral Sensitization -- Lanteri et al. 29 (4): 987 -- Journal of Neuroscience
Transient behavioral sensitization to nicotine bec... [Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2003] - PubMed result

Quit a bit more actually...

Tobacco's MOA inhibitors are harmala alkaloids... They are found in the plants I mentioned except Kava (Kava has a different family of MOAI).... All of them can be found in US herbal supplement stores ... Kava and Indian Tobacco have the most documented risk of the supplements.

Oh yeah and tobacco, unadulterated, has MOAI and is psychoactive.

And, IANAN, Dvap, Vape and Kin, I forgot to post this earlier, but I am also taking 25mg/day Passion Flower. Can't say it's hurt. I feel a little more enthusiasm for breathing, but still no drive, don't wanna get out of bed, still can't poop. Amazing how just not smoking a cigarette can effect a guy. I'd give those BT and FDA boys a piece of my mind, but I just don't feel like it right now. Maybe tomorrow.

[breakfastchef]

Back on topic...I care less if I am getting any nicotine from e-cigs or not since it allowed me to leave analogs behind. For me, that is the bottom line. If anyone trying to quit analogs cannot do so with the e-cig, there is a series of videos by premier forum member Tropical Bob who shows how you can satisfy your nicotine cravings for pennies on the dollar. Vaping, snus, nasal snuff and other nicotine sources are potential schemes you can use to kill your tobacco habit.

[IANAN]

Another MOA Article NIDA NOTES - Tobacco Smoke May Contain a Psychoactive Ingredient Other Than Nicotine

Looks like they were also looking at this in 1996 ... quit odd as the patches and gums were approved in 97... I wonder if they knew in 97 that the products they were turning out would have been ineffective? That would be real nasty now wouldn't it...

[kinabaloo]

Originally Posted by breakfastchef

Back on topic...

Just back from a space flight?

While a drum solo is ok for a while, give me the whole band. And without the packaging.

[kinabaloo]

There;s the old saying that the regulators say not to get in the liferaft in case it has a hole. That's not the only absurdity; there are just as many boneheads addicted to the idea of nicotine as the be all and end all, don't want to fix the hole with the plug sitting right next to it. Head. Brick wall.

[DVap]

I'd feel overall better if the alkaloid extract was characterized by a good GC/MS analysis. What I've done only represents what a competent (I hope) chemist can achieve with extremely modest means and a will to try to do something that makes a positive difference.

When I mixed up the extract, I mixed it up 400 mg to 14.4 mL final volume in PG/VG. This gave 14.4 mL of presumably 27.8 mg/mL alkaloids in 50:50 PG/VG. I know this because I made physical measurements, I weighed the extract and I measured the volumes.

This presumed concentration gives me a means to evaluate how much of the extract is actually alkaloids. Using a nicotine titration, and assuming that the other alkaloids will behave like nicotine in the titration (they won't individually, but on average, they should), the closer the determination comes to 27.8 mg/mL, the less likely any non-alkaloid is present.

Let's say the extract is half alkaloids and half non-alkaloid junk that I really don't want. I weighed out for 27.8 mg/mL. If the titration says only 13.9 mg/mL, then I have a serious problem in that half of the extract is something other than tobacco alkaloids. I purified for alkaloids, and I don't want anything else. Fortunately, as you'll see in a moment, this 50% nightmare screw-up scenario did not happen.

Since the amount I have is so little, I only determined 1 mL of the finished e-liquid, and used all the precision I could muster. The result of the titration is that the liquid determined to 27.4 mg/mL. Due to the uncertainty of measurement, this makes it indistinguishable from the concentration (27.8 mg/mL) predicted by weights and volumes. So the liquid, on average, behaves like a a mono-alkaloid base with a molecular weight right around 162. The extract I obtained is essentially pure tobacco alkaloids, the majority (perhaps 90%) being nicotine.

Here's what it looks like when tobacco alkaloids are separated from the rest of the tobacco. I would describe this tobacco alkaloid mix as a copper brown liquid of exceptional clarity (I.E. no cloudiness whatsoever). You're looking at 0.42 mL in an approximately 2 mL vial. This is the material that was mixed with USP PG and VG to produce the ~28 mg/mL whole tobacco alkaloid (WTA, if you require an acronym) e-liquid.

One needs to be careful with this stuff. Undiluted, as pictured here, it could kill a full-grown person perhaps 8 times over, not a sport for amateurs:




My thanks to Exo for hosting this image for me.

Pictured here, I believe, is why we smoke and why the plain nicotine foisted upon us by big pharma to the tune of billions? in sales for patches, gums, lozenges, dissolvables, you name it are such miserable failures. We don't smoke for nicotine alone, we smoke for this. It happens to be largely (~90%) nicotine, but not entirely nicotine.

Is this liquid harmless? Of course not. But not pictured in this vial is most everything in tobacco that kills people when burned and inhaled.

Pictured below is everything in tobacco that does kill people. This is the amount of tobacco required to produce the 0.42 mL of purified alkaloids pictured above. This is 25 grams, around 25 cigarettes worth. Now since analogs only deliver 10%, it would take around 10 times the amount pictured here, 250 grams (~12 packs) of tobacco smoked to actually get the alkaloids pictured above into your system.



Repeat thanks to exo for hosting.

So Anti's, what do you say? If somebody is absolutely unable to break the tobacco alkaloid addiction (you heard me, tobacco alkaloid addiction, not just nicotine!), what would you have us do? Quit or die? How about something between with a significant harm-reduction versus inhaling tobacco combustion products? This tiny amount of liquid, properly diluted in USP propylene glycol, USP glycerin, or a mixture of the two and delivered via a personal vaporizer, can likely keep a hopelessly addicted smoker from turning to cigarettes for perhaps 7 to 14 days. What do you say? Don't start with what you think "ought to be" in your idealized world, we've heard that nonsense, and it doesn't help anything but your sense of self-righteousness. Start with what "is".

Here's the problem, the worst of you are puritanical radicals. You cannot be reasoned with. It's not about harm reduction, it's about your quest to impose your will on others and stamp out tobacco use at any cost. "Don't do it or anything that looks remotely like it, you weak, character-flawed smokers!", you say.

Perfectly rational policy such as harm reduction is unacceptable, in your view it makes the totally unacceptable more acceptable. It makes your little brains explode, and you'll twist logic and facts to your agenda, spouting noble words out of one side of your mouths, while spreading lies out the other side hoping that well-intentioned policy makers will be too lazy, politically cowardly, or scientifically ignorant to see your wrong-headed disrespect for science and bizarre pseudo-scientific claims for what they are: Unsupportable lies marketed for consumption by the lazy policy-makers you hope to influence to uncritically repeat your lies with "force of authority". You market lie upon lie, with the intention that if one lie doesn't get traction, maybe another will. Ultimately you fail because what you are selling is bull****. Policy-makers and the public are not quite, as lazy, ignorant, and callous as you need them to be. In short, you are doomed to fail, and you'll just have to be content to condemn as many people as you can to an early death.

It's a good thing you people don't have it in for automobiles. Seat belts, air-bags, and crash-test safety ratings would really piss you guys off. You'd market the assertion that the only acceptable means of transportation is walking (oh, and you've have your charts, graphs, and data to "prove" it). But short of a total prohibition on automobiles (along with anything that might get a person from point A to point B without having to walk), only a car that explodes into a hellish fireball on the slightest impact would be grudgingly tolerated.

You people are, in short, a piece of work. Not only would you forbid people on a sinking ship access to the life-boats, you would shoot the lifeboats full of holes to force them to remain on the sinking ship.

Hell needs a special place for assholes like you.

We do need to engage those among the anti's who are not resistant to reason, and we've seen examples of anti's who are not blindly opposed to harm-reduction. We still must realize that the radical kooks aren't sitting still, and probably have it in for the non reason-resistant anti's.

.