So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Back on topic...I care less if I am getting any nicotine from e-cigs or not since it allowed me to leave analogs behind. For me, that is the bottom line. If anyone trying to quit analogs cannot do so with the e-cig, there is a series of videos by premier forum member Tropical Bob who shows how you can satisfy your nicotine cravings for pennies on the dollar. Vaping, snus, nasal snuff and other nicotine sources are potential schemes you can use to kill your tobacco habit.

It's pretty well documented here that we're getting it, alright. Question is, and I think this is what Trogg is asking, why do some of us (not all), if we're really getting ample nic, still don't get satisfaction, feel edgy, lose focus, find it hard to experience the gammit of emotion we had as analog smokers. It's a long thread, rich in info that's pushing for a resolution by some pretty smart people (excluding myself) and in the end, well, I think Trogg may have his answer. As to the other methods, that's a good point, but that also makes it obvious that it isn't just the nic that some of us are addicted to. Definitely worth a full read.

[Vaporer]

breakfastchef,
Yea, a few pages back it says everyones toolkit may not look alike.
The idea is to be off the analogs, reduce, quit find your destiny without analogs.
TB has been a plethora of info in these areas.

Twisted,
It would be nice for ecigs to fall into a new catagory or recreational usage devices.
The FDA's NRT's keep the level of nic alone so low they are prone to failure. They all seem to start off maybe ok, but fail miserably with time.

This forum is a great place. Support, openness, many skilled levels and actual real down to earth people. As a whole, you don't see slamming, ridicule for failure....just people wanting answers and many willing to help. I was amazed to read th recent ecig testing done allowed 16mg liquid. Most would have expected 4mg. Maybe they actually learned something reading here.

[exogenesis]

Great stuff DVap,

Your quantification of alkaloids by titration showing pretty much
all alkaloids and only alkaloids in the extract is a significant relief,
wasn't sure what else could have been in there
(TSNAs not-withstanding)

Wish the movers & shakers of the global industry did read this forum
(maybe they do), cos they'd certainly get a better perspective
of the real need/demand/true-safety effectors that exist, rather
than the carry-on-in the-same-old-way attitiude that ended us up
with smoking-cessation containing only nicotine.

[Kurt]

Anyhow they (RJRT and the Goberment FDA) tested the Eclipse and the harm profile, if used correctly, was reduced by an estimated 70%.

So let me get this straight. RJRT creates a heating-tobacco cigarette, the Eclipse (Eclipse - Tobacco Products), which depending on how it is used can still burn tobacco, although 70-90% less than an analog. FDA says sure, no problem, its certainly safer than an anaolg, go ahead RJRT!! The smoke from these, although less than an anolog, is still burning tobbacco smoke!

And they are having a fit over PVs, which burn nothing and do not have the carcinogenic chemicals of tobacco smoke.

Clearly, the mistake we are making is that we are not burning tobacco. This whole ridiculous saga with the FDA reminds me of a child caught in a lie, and having to lie again and again to cover his tracks.

I've been buried with research for some days now, but I have something from the heart for DVap:



You, sir, have serious chemistry chops! I totally envy your access to all that orgo glassware and chemicals. You either have an entire lab at home, a very cool boss, or you ARE the boss! You certainly are boss-chemist here.

For those lamenting not having the background to be able to follow this absolutely seminal thread (certainly one of the more important ones), its ok. If you CAN try this at home, that means you have an entire organic chem lab, and also the education to know what to have, how to use it, and why. What he is doing requires many years of advanced, post-graduate knowledge, not just book smarts, but practiced hands. And to make it worse for the novice, he is telling you maybe 10% of the details of what he is actually doing, at most. Unless you are actually a professional organic chemist with years of experience, namely in alkaloid extraction and purification, there is simply NO HOPE for you to do this, and it would lead to almost certain hospitalization, if not death, as in bad awful horrible messy death. I am fairly well trained in this, and I would not want to do what he is doing. For those that are well trained in this, he is actually not doing anything unusual or particularly difficult. Sort of like playing the Bach Unaccompanied Sonatas for cello is not particularly hard for Yo-yo Ma. It really does require that level of expertise.

I do have some general questions and comments. I have some experience with taking a tricyclic MAOI, back in the early '90s for depression. Anyone that takes these, or other antideps, knows that your psychology and physiological response is strongly dose-dependent. A tiny bit too much, and side effects become big. There is also a general danger with MAOIs, in that anything containing tryptamine (I believe) is forbidden. So red wine, hard cheeses, and others I forget. Same could be the case with tobacco MAOIs (TMAOIs). Additionally, MAOIs have fallen out of BP's favor, since they have lots of other side effects (Colon shuts down, weight gain, blurred vision, dry-mouth, sedation), even when used at normal therapeutic levels...which are different for everyone.

The trick is to create a mixture of nic and TMAOIs (and maybe other alkaloids we are not considering) that has the same relative balance as tobacco. Does anyone know the naturally occurring ratio of these alkaloids? Extraction of everything psychoactive is certainly possible, but will it have the same balance, and thus the same relative safety as what is in tobacco? I believe this is an important question, and extraction may not produce said balance, since different substances have different solubility equilibrium constants in a given solvent. You may end up with too much MAOIs compared to nic in the final material, or too much of something that is actually quite active, but we don't know about it yet because in tobacco it is in much lower amounts.


While I am thoroughly impressed by your prowess DVap, I am concerned about your relative safety in giving this final brew a vape. I believe there are too many variables here, and too many unknowns.

I do think all this will lead to excellent learning experiences about tobacco use in general. I just hope they are also forgiving experiences.

There is also the question of why these MAOIs are in tobacco in the first place. It may be that they keep nic from being oxided to cotinine, thus allowing the plant to retain its vital nicotine. Is it known that these MAOIs have dopamine/norepi activity? Or do they just get into us and keep nic from oxidizing to cot, thus allowing us to have the amount of nic needed to maintain the addiction?

Kin, shout out to you too! Excellent literature work and insights! Question: what is the enzyme in your avitar?

[DVap]

While I am thoroughly impressed by your prowess DVap, I am concerned about your relative safety in giving this final brew a vape. I believe there are too many variables here, and too many unknowns.

Thanks.. It does take some know-how, but the procedural side is simpler than you imagine. It's like the TV repairman who comes in, smacks the top of the TV with his fist, and it starts working perfectly. When he hands the customer the bill for $200, the customer freaks, "All you did was smack it!", the repairman replies, "That's $10 for smacking it, and $190 for knowing where to smack it."

Actually, I have given this more than a little consideration.

Alkaloids partition strongly to the intended phase. While what I have here is, in as far as I'm satisfied, generally representative of the raw tobacco alkaloid spread, whether it is representative of smoked tobacco is another thing entirely.

The pyrolysis (fancy word for combustion) might take a harsher toll on one component or another, and that's the issue I've given the most attention.

I'm convinced that most of the alkaloids that we get are a result of the heat of the proximate red hot coal (that sucker is hot) releasing them from the soon to be burned tobacco to be carried by the inhaled smoke, while those alkaloids in the coal itself are pyrolyzed and end up as contributors to the witches-brew that we call tar. In this analysis, it is likely that the unburned tobacco (and secondarily the filter, if there is one) play a role in the condensation of the vaporized alkaloids. The notion that tar condenses in tobacco, and the last quarter of a cigarette is far nastier than the first quarter is something we all have realized from experience. In this sense, how we smoke a cigarette plays a significant role in the manipulation of the alkaloid mix we receive, and different smoking styles likely produce different alkaloid profiles in the inhaled smoke.

In summary, I believe that different smoking style produces wide enough variations in the profile of the inhaled alkaloids, that vaping the representative alkaloid mix creates an alkaloid profile within or near enough to the alkaloid profile range that might be seen in smoking.

Personally, I find vaping the alkaloid mix at 28 mg/mL to hit far too strongly for my former "smoke that ultra-light 2/3rd's of the way down" style. It reminds me very much of my days in college when I got a complementary carton of unfiltered Camels in the mail, and felt compelled, somehow, to smoke the whole damned thing.

For me, the alkaloid mix feels "right" at around 12 mg/mL, which is coincidentally the concentration of nicotine only e-liquid that I prefer. I just seem to feel like vaping less of it than the nicotine only liquid.

[olderthandirt]

...
For those lamenting not having the background to be able to follow this absolutely seminal thread (certainly one of the more important ones), its ok.

...he is telling you maybe 10% of the details of what he is actually doing, at most. Unless you are actually a professional organic chemist with years of experience, namely in alkaloid extraction and purification, there is simply NO HOPE for you to do this, and it would lead to almost certain hospitalization, if not death, as in bad awful horrible messy death....

While I am thoroughly impressed by your prowess DVap, I am concerned about your relative safety in giving this final brew a vape. I believe there are too many variables here, and too many unknowns.

I do think all this will lead to excellent learning experiences about tobacco use in general. I just hope they are also forgiving experiences.
...

Hey Kurt
I for one am continually kept in such a state of awe by some of the insights posted here I've no time for lamenting my igor-ance

And while it's a darn good thing Dvap is only sharing a hint of the actual process being performed, DVap that sig of yours is priceless, I'm with you Kurt with regards possible Jekyll/Hyde outcomes for our resident chemists from self administrations of their brew.

S'pose as long as DVap and Kin keep posting we'll know all is well

Back igor, back to your lurking.

[DVap]

OTD, I suppose that sig should apply to non-professionals.

I don't have a problem handling extremely hazardous materials routinely, but I'm certainly appropriately cautious. With extremely hazardous materials, the greater part of being cautious is understanding what being cautious entails.

[kpolen]

I wonder sometimes if some of the folks here actually read (or at least browse) the entire thread?

Hey DVap,

My mistake, not sure how I missed your posts. [I must admit to not reading every single post in full, but I took about 15 min or so to go through the thread and get the jist of things]. However, I feel like an idiot, as you are definitely a person to whom I was referring in my post script.

I am going to finish reading the thread now.

Definitely nice to know that the experts are delving into e-liquid advancement. I look forward to continued discussion here.

-Kelly

[kinabaloo]

In summary, I believe that different smoking style produces wide enough variations in the profile of the inhaled alkaloids, that vaping the representative alkaloid mix creates an alkaloid profile within or near enough to the alkaloid profile range that might be seen in smoking.

That's my judgement too, as we can be pretty sure that you extracted just about all the nicotine, so the other alkaloids could not be in excess proportion.

It reminds me very much of my days in college when I got a complementary carton of unfiltered Camels in the mail, and felt compelled, somehow, to smoke the whole damned thing.

Just as 'lights' are now seen as a mistake, nic-only e-liquid, and nic-only NRTs are a similar mistake.

I just seem to feel like vaping less of it than the nicotine only liquid.

I maintain that the benefits of WTA are likely more than just MAOI effect, but that alone could explain the unexpected - that even those who do ok with just nic could well do better with WTA.

Toxilogically, WTA will not be different from normal e-liquid to any significant extent. Rather, the greater efficacy of WTA will go some way to answering the critics. It is not an extra burden for us, it relieves that burden somewhat. (* there is a footnote here I will address later)

There have been a few voices raising this issue with regard to NRTs over the years, and their fairly dismal success rate at getting people off smokes. Now we have the beginnings of real evidence to back the (pretty obvious) theory.

[DVap]

Hey DVap,

My mistake, not sure how I missed your posts. [I must admit to not reading every single post in full, but I took about 15 min or so to go through the thread and get the jist of things]. However, I feel like an idiot, as you are definitely a person to whom I was referring in my post script.

I am going to finish reading the thread now.

Definitely nice to know that the experts are delving into e-liquid advancement. I look forward to continued discussion here.

-Kelly

Information on these forums does tend to get spread out. What was being discussed on the nicotine determination thread in DIY E-liquids has wandered, quite accidentally, over here to Nicotine. So it's quite understandable that, given the sheer volume of posts to wade through (combined with the sometimes mind-numbing technical nature of the posts that some of us more egregious eggheads are known for posting), things can get missed.