so are we getting it or are we not.. nicotine - Page 3 - E-Cigarette Forum

deewal · 10-25-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telsie

Another possibility is that we absorb nicotine just as well from vaping, but that it's less effective when not combined with all the other chemicals found in analogs.

That is the conclusion i have come to.

TropicalBob · 10-25-2009, 09:27 PM

I was fascinated with this recent post from Smokefree Pennsylvania's Bill Godshall on this forum. Consider what he said:

Quote:

In the next few months, there are likely to be news stories and probably published articles in peer reviewed health/healthcare journals claiming that e-cigarettes either contain or emit very little (if any) nicotine, and calling for a ban on the products (because they are mislabeled as containing nicotine).

Several reliable sources (including a prominant tobacco product researcher and the head of respected testing laboratory) have informed me that several tests and/or studies have been (or are being) conducted that have found that some (perhaps most or all) of the e-cigarette products tested in laboratories and clinics (on e-cigarette users) found little or no nicotine in the products or in the blood stream of users.

Ironically, while some have advocated a ban on e-cigarettes by claiming that "they contain enough nicotine to kill a person", others will soon be advocating a ban on the products by claiming "they don't contain or deliver any nicotine".

I think he saw this as "bad" for the future of e-smoking. I see a way out for the FDA. I've written before that someone who should know told me the FDA is looking for a way out now. This is that way.

This past week, a head of a corporation on the fringe of e-smoking (can't be more specific or blow a confidential source) had some e-liquid tested and phoned me with the results. There was almost no nicotine in the vapor. Same result Bill said we'd soon see in the news.

Well ... if there is not a sufficient amount of the drug nicotine to produce a physiological and psychological change, and if there's not enough to alleviate the medical condition called "nicotine addiction" then the e-liquid does not meet the FDA definition of a drug and the e-cig thus is not a "drug delivery device."

There's the save-face way out.

These are ineffectual by scientific test. Let us conclude whatever we conclude. Science has an answer the FDA needs.

I can live with that answer and e-cigs could continue to evolve.

gooney0 · 10-25-2009, 11:14 PM

My experience thus far:

Started with 18mg juice in a 510. I had cravings like crazy. I was working the 510 as hard as I could to make them go away. It took 5-10 minutes for the cravings to go away.

The next week I moved up and now use 24mg juice. The cravings are slight now. I get them if I haven't vaped in a awhile or if the 510 is not working very well.

I've never been aware of nicotines effect. I don't get dizzy or a rush from it. First thing in the morning I'd be dying for a smoke though.

It seems likely that the nicotine in e-cigs is not very effective for at least some users. It is also possible my cravings have reduced simply by reducing my addiction.

For me its a non-issue. I'd prefer to be free of nicotine addiction, and to do that I'm going to have to suffer some withdraw.

The important thing to me is to stop smoking, and they've done that. At some point I'd like to be free of the PV as well.

My final goal is to only use a PV from time to time and only when I really want to. My big complaint with smoking was that I felt I HAD to smoke. One day I won't have to vape if its inconvenient to do so.

-Gooney0

gooney0 · 10-25-2009, 11:16 PM

TropicalBob makes a great point too. The Model T was a great car, but it wasn't the perfect car.

As interest builds I bet we'll see much better PVs in the future. (i hope)

-Gooney0

clear lungs · 10-25-2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trog100

nicotine quitters and nicotine swappers.. which camp are you in...

i have been reading stuff lately that is suggesting e cigs are pretty useless nicotine delivery systems.. they are nothing much more than placebos..

does this make me happy.. no it bloody dosnt.. is it true.. i hope not..

trog

Trog I just have to say that this would make me very happy! I would love to find out that I am no longer addicted to nicotine and that the e-cig tricked me into thinking I was still getting nic! Then I would know that all I had to do is kick the hand-to-mouth thing and no longer be a slave to anything. Nicotine is the only thing that has ever taken control over me. How wonderful it would be to find out that not even nicotine controled me any longer. I would not be mad at all, but that's just me I guess.

Heed · 10-26-2009, 12:18 AM

Well, we know we have nicotine in our liquids at labeled levels for some suppliers -- tested by a chemist on the forum (DVap) and others.

We know only about 40% of the nicotine in the liquid makes it into the vapour -- we lose 60% before we even have a chance to absorb it. Tested by DVap in a vapour capture experiment.

We know that a forum user has had blood levels done which have shown nicotine present in the bloodstream at levels lower than would be expected from smoking tobacco: Blood test lab results for nicotine levels!!!

EDIT: We now know from someone who participated in a clinical trial that vaping delivers nicotine but a lot less when compared to smoking: Smoking Everywhere V. FDA Daily Docket Sheet Update--APPEAL's COURT STAYS JUDGE LEON'S RULING FOR NOW

All of this just backs up what has been widely believed on the forum for quite some time -- e-cigs are not very efficient at delivering the nic. However, all things being equal, they do deliver nicotine to users -- they are not merely placebos.

The really interesting part is that it would seem, for a large portion of smokers, a small amount of nicotine can satisfy the smoking urge if it is accompanied by faithful mimicry of the smoking action.

For those that will transition fully to vaping, I think the nicotine that is ingested is important to help in the successful transition, but I think it becomes less important over time. Of course, those that really like the nicotine or feel they need it to "balance themselves" in some way will likely be the ones looking for the stronger liquids and continue to use tobacco as well. In short, they'll likely not transition well or fully.

To me, this makes vaping much more of a cessation orientated activity. It actually tries to wean you off nicotine without your direct knowledge: the many, "I didn't even try to quit" type stories are stories of people who have not only stopped smoking but also likely cut their nicotine intake significantly -- quite happily. And this explains why the real "nic freaks" have a hard time with just vaping as you have to work harder (high nic liquid, high voltage, chain vape) if you use vaping as a way to maintain your nicotine levels as they were when using tobacco. Right now, the natural path of vaping tends more in the direction of cutting ones nic usage rather than maintaining that usage.

happily · 10-26-2009, 12:30 AM

I too love nicotine and take it intentionally. Just like caffeine. The facts I've seen so far are that several tests have shown the correct amount of labeled nicotine in the juices, but my own personal blood test showed about 15% of the expected nicotine absorption. I was glad to know I wasn't going to overdose, but sad to know I wasn't the desired amount of anti depressant I've grown to love

TWISTED VICTOR · 10-26-2009, 12:43 AM

I agree, Heed. For me, anyway. 2 weeks after vaping and no analogs I was using TW 36mg 555 and didn't even taste it. I'd keep taking hits to completely fill my lungs, then hold it until there was no vaper on exhale just to absorb as much nic as possible. I did this until I got some higher strength liquid to spike in. I don't do that, now, as the 36 is ok and I'm also not chain-vaping like I was. My system is getting use to less nic, so I go much longer periods without. That said, whether I planned it or not (which I surely didn't) nicotine is loosing its hold on me.

YoMike · 10-26-2009, 12:44 AM

Had a friend who doesn't smoke but smokes weed for years all the time. He'd smoke a analog once in a while. Well he was over and said let me hit the heavy stuff. I loaded up a 501 with 36mg. He took 5 hug hits not to fast. I feel dizzy, oh dam! ran to the bathroom and though up! Yes the old to much nic for a non smoker!

pistolpete · 10-26-2009, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YoMike

Had a friend who doesn't smoke but smokes weed for years all the time. He'd smoke a analog once in a while. Well he was over and said let me hit the heavy stuff. I loaded up a 501 with 36mg. He took 5 hug hits not to fast. I feel dizzy, oh dam! ran to the bathroom and though up! Yes the old to much nic for a non smoker!

Very well put mike, but if he kept vapping the 36mg for two to four weeks all day his brain and body would be looking for more nicotine maybe 48mg? and then more nicotine maybe some 60mg? that's how the addition works.

10-26-2009, 12:18 AM	#26
Heed Senior Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Dasein Posts: 182	Well, we know we have nicotine in our liquids at labeled levels for some suppliers -- tested by a chemist on the forum (DVap) and others. We know only about 40% of the nicotine in the liquid makes it into the vapour -- we lose 60% before we even have a chance to absorb it. Tested by DVap in a vapour capture experiment. We know that a forum user has had blood levels done which have shown nicotine present in the bloodstream at levels lower than would be expected from smoking tobacco: Blood test lab results for nicotine levels!!! EDIT: We now know from someone who participated in a clinical trial that vaping delivers nicotine but a lot less when compared to smoking: Smoking Everywhere V. FDA Daily Docket Sheet Update--APPEAL's COURT STAYS JUDGE LEON'S RULING FOR NOW All of this just backs up what has been widely believed on the forum for quite some time -- e-cigs are not very efficient at delivering the nic. However, all things being equal, they do deliver nicotine to users -- they are not merely placebos. The really interesting part is that it would seem, for a large portion of smokers, a small amount of nicotine can satisfy the smoking urge if it is accompanied by faithful mimicry of the smoking action. For those that will transition fully to vaping, I think the nicotine that is ingested is important to help in the successful transition, but I think it becomes less important over time. Of course, those that really like the nicotine or feel they need it to "balance themselves" in some way will likely be the ones looking for the stronger liquids and continue to use tobacco as well. In short, they'll likely not transition well or fully. To me, this makes vaping much more of a cessation orientated activity. It actually tries to wean you off nicotine without your direct knowledge: the many, "I didn't even try to quit" type stories are stories of people who have not only stopped smoking but also likely cut their nicotine intake significantly -- quite happily. And this explains why the real "nic freaks" have a hard time with just vaping as you have to work harder (high nic liquid, high voltage, chain vape) if you use vaping as a way to maintain your nicotine levels as they were when using tobacco. Right now, the natural path of vaping tends more in the direction of cutting ones nic usage rather than maintaining that usage. __________________ I vape, therefore I am ...a non-smoker. Last edited by Heed; 10-27-2009 at 12:46 AM. Reason: new data -- clinical trial participant speaks

10-26-2009, 12:30 AM	#27
happily Ultra Member ECF Veteran Join Date: May 2009 Location: ut Posts: 1,991	I too love nicotine and take it intentionally. Just like caffeine. The facts I've seen so far are that several tests have shown the correct amount of labeled nicotine in the juices, but my own personal blood test showed about 15% of the expected nicotine absorption. I was glad to know I wasn't going to overdose, but sad to know I wasn't the desired amount of anti depressant I've grown to love __________________

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10-25-2009, 11:14 PM	#23
gooney0 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Falls Church, VA Posts: 288	My experience thus far: Started with 18mg juice in a 510. I had cravings like crazy. I was working the 510 as hard as I could to make them go away. It took 5-10 minutes for the cravings to go away. The next week I moved up and now use 24mg juice. The cravings are slight now. I get them if I haven't vaped in a awhile or if the 510 is not working very well. I've never been aware of nicotines effect. I don't get dizzy or a rush from it. First thing in the morning I'd be dying for a smoke though. It seems likely that the nicotine in e-cigs is not very effective for at least some users. It is also possible my cravings have reduced simply by reducing my addiction. For me its a non-issue. I'd prefer to be free of nicotine addiction, and to do that I'm going to have to suffer some withdraw. The important thing to me is to stop smoking, and they've done that. At some point I'd like to be free of the PV as well. My final goal is to only use a PV from time to time and only when I really want to. My big complaint with smoking was that I felt I HAD to smoke. One day I won't have to vape if its inconvenient to do so. -Gooney0

10-25-2009, 11:16 PM	#24
gooney0 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Falls Church, VA Posts: 288	TropicalBob makes a great point too. The Model T was a great car, but it wasn't the perfect car. As interest builds I bet we'll see much better PVs in the future. (i hope) -Gooney0

10-26-2009, 12:43 AM	#28
TWISTED VICTOR Ultra Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Lucerne, IN Posts: 1,961	I agree, Heed. For me, anyway. 2 weeks after vaping and no analogs I was using TW 36mg 555 and didn't even taste it. I'd keep taking hits to completely fill my lungs, then hold it until there was no vaper on exhale just to absorb as much nic as possible. I did this until I got some higher strength liquid to spike in. I don't do that, now, as the 36 is ok and I'm also not chain-vaping like I was. My system is getting use to less nic, so I go much longer periods without. That said, whether I planned it or not (which I surely didn't) nicotine is loosing its hold on me.

10-26-2009, 12:44 AM	#29
YoMike Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Maui HI Posts: 179	Had a friend who doesn't smoke but smokes weed for years all the time. He'd smoke a analog once in a while. Well he was over and said let me hit the heavy stuff. I loaded up a 501 with 36mg. He took 5 hug hits not to fast. I feel dizzy, oh dam! ran to the bathroom and though up! Yes the old to much nic for a non smoker!