So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[kinabaloo]

????? wheeww, can't bluff myself through this one. I think I was almost comprehending something when I got to your note to Dvap. First, my eyes started to water, drooled a little, then my head exploded. Not sure what happened while blacked out, but my left eyelid is quivering and all the neighbors' lights are all on. ?? Thanks, though.

That last post is pretty technical. The p terms refer to the location of electrons and the strength of bonds.

Compounds are composed of atoms, which have protons and neutrons in the center and electrons around the outside. The electrons can be swapped or shared to create a bond between two compounds.

Some links that might be helpful:

Types of chemical bond: Chemical Bonds
Comaprison of ionic and covalent bonding: Covalent Bonds vs Ionic Bonds - Difference and Comparison - Diffen
Polar bonds and solubility in water: Chemical polarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lone pairs: Lone pair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[kinabaloo]

Oh, and DVap, your protonation comment about which N is more basic. The amine N has an sp3 lone pair, the pyridine N has an sp2 lone pair. sp3 has more p-character than sp2 (3/4 vs 2/3) and so reaches out more, like a p, and grabs protons more. pKb of amines are around 4, pyridine is I think around 10. So it is right in line with what I would expect as far as which is going to salt first. Plus alkyl groups tend to donate e- character, making the N even more basic than ammonia.

To understand what Kurt is talking about, have a look here:

CHAPTER 21: AMINES

[Kurt]

TV, just spend the last five minutes laughing non-stop!! Not sure if it is just a small picture of you, but you look like a long haired Nick Cage. So it was his voice I heard talking about whatever damage your exploding head did to the neighbors house. Thanks, I definitely needed the laugh.

Ya, I figured the comment to DVap might cause a reaction after I posted...just ignore it, he will understand. Chemistry information, unless you really know it well, can sometimes be for the recipient something just short of psychological warfare. All I can say is everything here is essential and as you put so well, revolutionary. Its not incredibly important for you to understand all the stuff I was talking about with MAO, but I can promise a helluva journey if you try! Personally I think people should know more chemistry than they do...and if there is a ban, and we want to continue vaping, then we all become chemists. Although these days with all the flavors I'm playing with, I feel more like a chef. And that's cool too.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Types of chemical bond: Chemical Bonds
Comaprison of ionic and covalent bonding: Covalent Bonds vs Ionic Bonds - Difference and Comparison - Diffen
Polar bonds and solubility in water: Chemical polarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lone pairs: Lone pair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

CHAPTER 21: AMINES

Looking up now, kin. Thanks, still picking up pieces of hair, but, at least most of the neighbors' lights have gone back off.

[Kurt]

That last post is pretty technical. The p terms refer to the location of electrons and the strength of bonds.

Compounds are composed of atoms, which have protons and neutrons in the center and electrons around the outside. The electrons can be swapped or shared to create a bond between two compounds.

Some links that might be helpful:

Types of chemical bond: Chemical Bonds
Comaprison of ionic and covalent bonding: Covalent Bonds vs Ionic Bonds - Difference and Comparison - Diffen
Polar bonds and solubility in water: Chemical polarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lone pairs: Lone pair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks Kin! These are great links! And very good to have linked here. Folks, if this stuff doesn't make sense, do not think you are stupid!! Chemistry takes a LONG time to understand well, and there are vast amounts I don't understand yet myself. Being in the field for many years though has taught me that when I don't understand it just means it is new, not that I am an idiot...of course that doesn't mean I'm NOT an idiot, just that the chemistry didn't make me that way. The '70s did.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

[quote=Kurt;715234].

Ya, I figured the comment to DVap might cause a reaction after I posted...just ignore it, quote]
Too late...growth already stunted...damage already done.

[DVap]

This is what happens when I take a day off outta here to take my grandson hiking up in the mountains. I get reminded how much I've known that I've forgotten!

When I read that chapter on amine chemistry, I was feeling kinda dumb myself. I've studied every bit of that in the deep past and it all made perfect sense to me once upon a time. The benefit of a chemistry background is that when faced with incomprehensible detail, it's all familiar incomprehensible detail, and I know exactly to which chapter of exactly which of my old textbooks I'll have to turn to soak it all back in and remember the relevant nuances. The part that's kinda funny, it's not so much my organic textbook, or my inorganic textbook, or even qualitative or quantitative analysis that I need to revisit (and please, I never want to open my physical chemistry text ever again!). It's my first year chemistry I need to brush back up on. I knew a lot of this stuff better in high school than I do now... The university actually let me skip first year chemistry, but I had to sit down with the previous year's final exam to do it, and anything less than a 90 meant I'd have to take the course. I got a 98, went straight to organic chemisty, passed go and collected $200. And now, I can't remember half of it.

A little secret about chemistry that Kurt will probably agree with.. we study all these difference branches of chemistry, love some of them and hate others.. then we get our degree, go to work, and only use and grow our expertise with a small fraction of the stuff we spent all that time learning. We hardly think about the rest for years at a stretch. Fortunately for me, in the current context of dissecting vaping chemicals, analytical chemistry was the chemical discipline I kept up with year after year.

[DVap]

Just as a general FYI, after making 14.3 mL of 28 mg WTA in PG/VG, early Saturday, I shipped 7.5 mL off to my guinea pig who is so far generally anonymous, but he might raise his hand if he's inclined, it's really up to him.

I did specify "For laboratory use only, not for human consumption", and I leave it up to him to either honor the wise counsel of the label, or not.

This left me with 6.8 mL, and I sadly sacrificed 1 mL to confirm that the gravimetric and volumetric preparation of the WTA mix in PG/VG would actually test out at the level predicted by these measurements. It did, so it was a sad loss, but a valuable one. Now I was down to 5.8 mL and I figured I'd earned a good hard vaping session or two with an anvil in a velvet glove. I was very mellow when I discovered I had only 5 mL of the 28 mg WTA liquid left. So early Saturday afternoon, I cut the 5 mL in half with PG/VG, and now I had 10 mL of a 14 mg WTA liquid. This one is more my level, and it is the one I vaped the bulk of Saturday and all of Sunday (Including some relaxing vaping while I was climbing a steep and rocky trail with my 7 year old grandson trying but failing to drive me crazy.) Seeing as the boy was around the whole weekend, it was a lively weekend, and my vaping was more "just vaping" than spending time "thinking about vaping", I let the vaping spirit carry me where it would.

So here I sit after all of that.. with the WTA bottle that I used Saturday and Sunday. It started at 10 mL, and currently sits at 7 mL.

14 mg WTA (~12.5 in nicotine) - two days, 1.5 mL per day. My normal vaping of 12.5 mg nicotine is 2.5 mL per day. Still vaping at 60% of my normal pace, and still feeling good. Got that "Brick wrapped in a velvet glove feeling" in my throat and that groovy feeling going down in my head.

It will be interesting to see what my x-factor addicted guinea pig thinks of the WTA mix at 28 mg. Will he honor my labeling and keep it out of his atty? Stay tuned.

[kinabaloo]

This is what happens when I take a day off outta here to take my grandson hiking up in the mountains. I get reminded how much I've known that I've forgotten!

You really have been chilling since you made that new vape juice

Just two days, and forget chemistry, retreat to mountain !

lol

[IANAN]

Some more research and articles to help people understand this;

Effects of Nicotine on the body and an explanation of the smokers Paradox (The 4 group matrix DVap is explained by this) ;

Nicotine - Psychology Wiki

Basic summary: Nicotine in low doses works as a stimulate but it is unique as it also effects dopamine and serotonin levels in high doses working as a pain killer/sedative at high doses. Smokers Paradox is the fact that smoking does provide therapeutic benefits to the user for many aliments.

beta-carbolines as potentiating agents(The MOAIs in tobacco- Harmala alkaloids to be exact);
Neuro-Alchemy: Beta-Carbolines as Potentiating Agents

Basically it may be that the Harman in the tobacco smoke is potentiating something else in the smoke-- it could also be having a synergistic effect with the nicotine.

More on beta-carbolines; Interaction of beta-carboline inverse agonists for the benzodiazepine site with

An easy to read article on beta-carbolines, thier chemical structures, and links on whuch plants have them;

Cornell University Department of Animal Science
Cornell University Department of Animal Science

And let's not forget our friend chocolate.... it contains beta-carbolines also;

Tetrahydro-beta-carbolines, potential neuroactive ... [J Agric Food Chem. 2000] - PubMed result