So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[kinabaloo]

A possible way to avoid the need for a volatile non-polar.

Strength of alkali is very important, enough to get most of most types of alkaloid, but not so strong as to get a number of destructive or complicating effects.

A very good choice is ammonium hydroxide (NH4OH). And because this is volatile, final acid-alkali cycling phase can be aqueous solution of the salt rather than freebase in non-polar solvent.

Which allows a wider choice of non-polar solvent

[exogenesis]

Phrase heard on TV this evening:
OK, maybe we've got the golden egg, but the goose is not being fed & could starve.
(or maybe wander off, at least)

If DVap has achieved the goal of making a possibly usable TWA (gaaah, TLA's!),
what would be his next achievable objective ?

Answers on a postcard


Vaporer, I'd love to gain some weight, in the right areas of course (no jokes please),
I thought that consumate nicotine satisfaction would cause weight loss due to less eating,
c.f. if you quit nicotine.
Certainly found I was eating less (or thinking of food) when vaping was initially full-on working for me,
even versus smoking. Thought I might waste-away while reading the forum.

Kin., nice ideas but DVap's input would be informative, from the chemistry/practical point of view.

[kinabaloo]

wasting my time

[exogenesis]

Er...... k

[kinabaloo]

Carboline MAOI alkaloids in food and tobacco

Relative exposure to beta-carbolines norharman and harman from foods and tobacco smoke.Herraiz T.
Spanish Council for Scientific Research, Instituto de Fermentaciones Industriales, CSIC, Juan de la Cierva 3, E-28006 Madrid, Spain. therraiz@ifi.csic.es

Norharman and harman are two heterocyclic beta-carboline (9H-pyrido[3,4-b]indole) alkaloids with biological and potential toxicological activity that appear in foodstuffs and environmental sources. ...

The levels found of beta-carbolines were highly variable. Low processed foodstuffs (i.e. milk, yoghurt, uncooked meats and fish) did not contain norharman and harman above the detection limit. Others, however, contained relatively high concentrations (at the tens of ng g(-1) or microg l(-1) level) depending on the processing conditions as, for example, 'well-done' cooked meat and fish. The highest amounts of norharman and harman were found in brewed coffee (29-207 microg l(-1)), sauces (soy sauce and Tabasco, among others; 4-252 microg l(-1)), 'well done' cooked meat and fish (57-160 ng g(-1)), toasted bread (42-160 ng g(-1)), and fermented alcoholic beverages (n.d.-41 mug l(-1)). beta-Carbolines also occurred in a high amount in the mainstream of cigarette smoke (207-2780 ng/cigarette), which is an important contributor to daily exposure to these compounds.

Based on these results, it is concluded that the daily exposure to beta-carbolines in humans might be from tens to hundreds of micrograms, with cigarette smoke, coffee, certain seasonings, cooked foods and alcoholic beverages, in this order, being the major contributors. Many other foodstuffs might also contribute with minor amounts of norharman and harman. Foods and tobacco smoke might be potential contributors to the reported endogenous presence of beta-carbolines in humans.

PMID: 15764332 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

~~~

In the absense of discovery of any other alkaloid candidate likely to be present in tobacco, we are left with MAOI effects of harman, norharman, anabasine (acetylcholine receptor agonist and close relative of nicotine), anatabine, and nornicotine (a secondary tobacco alkaloid that is produced by the N-demethylation of nicotine). And the calming effect due to higher dosage levels of nicotine.

If there is an endorphin release, perhaps it is the result of TH, a pain mediated response similar to that evoked by capsaicin.

~~~

Apparaently there have been patents granted related to MAOIs for improved NRTs :

United States Patent 6,350,479
Williams , et al. February 26, 2002

United States Patent 6,569,470
Williams , et al. May 27, 2003

United States Patent 6,929,811
Williams , et al. August 16, 2005

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Hi, Elf. During a coherent moment your posts came to mind and I thought I'd respond before it slipped back into the darkness . As I read I could feel your anguish, another tortured soul. But, maybe we can rejoice. So far the evidence suggests the missing link (X-Factor) has been found . If so, the next step would be to find a reputable liquid maker who sees the logic (and windfall of $$$) to produce and market it. As far as I understand, said reputable maker would have the capability already, just do a little recalibration to current proccesses. I hope (screaming to God) it happens and soon, before the FDA gets wind that next years tobacco tax revenue will be lower than expected . Until then, all we can do is wait (Please, God, Please...waaaa). It's not anything we can make at home unless someone prefers vaping gasoline . Until then, pull up a chair, eat some chocolate (dark is best, hold the chili's on mine) and join in the company of other tortured souls who feel your pain. Also, look into snuf, snus and anything by Tropical Bob to tide you over 'til the next generation of e-liquid hits the market .

[IANAN]

Fear of litigation too kept innovation from becoming reality. E-cigs could have been a reality decades ago (though would have been a bit chunky given battery technology back then). One can point the finger at 'politics' as much as the tobacco producers for the millions dead over those years. Is history going to repeat itself?

1997- It was when PM released their version to test markets. RJR had theirs out in the 80's and then relaunched it in the 90's ;

NOVA Online | Search for a Safe Cigarette | "Safer" Cigarettes: A History

It's more the FDA and health NGOs that are holding back progress since the BT companies lost their case...

[firechick]

I've messed with tobacco absolute, and it is a very thick material that smells to no end. However, the smell lacks any sharpness whatsoever. It is quoted at zero nicotine, which leads me to believe that the alkaloids were quite purposefully removed.

Thanks, DVap.

Anyone have thoughts on a relationship between age at first continued cigarette use and WTA dependency? For example, would a person who began smoking at a young age be more dependent (because their brain matured in a bath of alkaloids) than someone who started smoking regularly in their 20's?

[IANAN]

Carboline MAOI alkaloids in food and tobacco

Relative exposure to beta-carbolines norharman and harman from foods and tobacco smoke.Herraiz T.
Spanish Council for Scientific Research, Instituto de Fermentaciones Industriales, CSIC, Juan de la Cierva 3, E-28006 Madrid, Spain. therraiz@ifi.csic.es

Norharman and harman are two heterocyclic beta-carboline (9H-pyrido[3,4-b]indole) alkaloids with biological and potential toxicological activity that appear in foodstuffs and environmental sources. ...

The levels found of beta-carbolines were highly variable. Low processed foodstuffs (i.e. milk, yoghurt, uncooked meats and fish) did not contain norharman and harman above the detection limit. Others, however, contained relatively high concentrations (at the tens of ng g(-1) or microg l(-1) level) depending on the processing conditions as, for example, 'well-done' cooked meat and fish. The highest amounts of norharman and harman were found in brewed coffee (29-207 microg l(-1)), sauces (soy sauce and Tabasco, among others; 4-252 microg l(-1)), 'well done' cooked meat and fish (57-160 ng g(-1)), toasted bread (42-160 ng g(-1)), and fermented alcoholic beverages (n.d.-41 mug l(-1)). beta-Carbolines also occurred in a high amount in the mainstream of cigarette smoke (207-2780 ng/cigarette), which is an important contributor to daily exposure to these compounds.

Based on these results, it is concluded that the daily exposure to beta-carbolines in humans might be from tens to hundreds of micrograms, with cigarette smoke, coffee, certain seasonings, cooked foods and alcoholic beverages, in this order, being the major contributors. Many other foodstuffs might also contribute with minor amounts of norharman and harman. Foods and tobacco smoke might be potential contributors to the reported endogenous presence of beta-carbolines in humans.

PMID: 15764332 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

~~~

In the absense of discovery of any other alkaloid candidate likely to be present in tobacco, we are left with MAOI effects of harman, norharman, anabasine (acetylcholine receptor agonist and close relative of nicotine), anatabine, and nornicotine (a secondary tobacco alkaloid that is produced by the N-demethylation of nicotine). And the calming effect due to higher dosage levels of nicotine.

If there is an endorphin release, perhaps it is the result of TH, a pain mediated response similar to that evoked by capsaicin.

~~~

Apparaently there have been patents granted related to MAOIs for improved NRTs :

United States Patent 6,350,479
Williams , et al. February 26, 2002

United States Patent 6,569,470
Williams , et al. May 27, 2003

United States Patent 6,929,811
Williams , et al. August 16, 2005

Beta-carbolines... just like I said but yes... there was another study before that one that concluded it was harman and norharman that was the cause. Chocolate has Beta-carbolines also.

Mostly the list of plants and herbs I posted has Harman and Norharman in them. Passion Flower has a good source of it....

Oh yes. Harman and Norharman has an interaction with other alkoloids... it makes them do things they otherwise wouldn't do...

[kinabaloo]

1997- It was when PM released their version to test markets. RJR had theirs out in the 80's and then relaunched it in the 90's ;

NOVA Online | Search for a Safe Cigarette | "Safer" Cigarettes: A History

It's more the FDA and health NGOs that are holding back progress since the BT companies lost their case...

I saw something about a battery powered tobacco liquid vaporiser way back in the 50s. Should have saved the link.

Found it. Was 1963: http://www.e-cig.org/2009/11/07/new-...cco-cigarette/