So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[LameBMX]

If I smoke 20 analogs rated at 1 mg, the tobacco company has already done the testing as mandated by the government, and I know I'm getting ~20 mg of nicotine. It doesn't matter that those 20 analogs contained ~200 mg of nicotine. Smoking delivers about 10% of the nicotine present to the inhaled smoke.

A point that I should make here is that I believe we all have a "setpoint" for our nicotine addiction, unique to our individual brain chemistry, and it resists being changed. If an ultra-light smoker starts smoking full flavor analogs, consumption will generally go down to compensate for the over-dosing of nicotine. If a full flavor smoker starts smoking ultra-lights, consumption will generally go up to compensate for the under-dosing of nicotine. I do not particularly believe that higher nicotine consumption than normal will result in a greater level of nicotine addiction, or that tolerance leads to increased usage. Very simply, I believe we all have our unique "addiction level", and we quite unconsciously and expertly maintain it.

Back to the analog/vaping comparison. We had 20 full flavor analogs per day delivering 20 mg of nicotine per day. I've found that we need to vape 2.5X the nicotine, or 50 mg/day, so we might vape ~2.5 mL of 20 mg or ~1.5 mg of 36 mg. We're putting ~ 50 mg of nicotine onto the atomizer coil because of that 50 mg, only 40% or 20 mg of nicotine makes it into the vapor and into our bodies. So by vaping 50 mg of nicotine per day, we are delivering 20 mg of nicotine per day to our bodies.

Hope this helps!

I was going to reply to telsie's post myself. But yours will actually do better. I always thought they stated the actual nicotine amount in the cigarette? It seems since the cigarette is a constant. There are X grams of tobacco which contain an average of Xmg nicotine per Xg of tobacco leading to Xmg per cigarette. We all know body chemistries are different, how would they mandate cigarettes report the amount of nicotine that enters one's blood stream when they do not know how fast it is going to be absorbed, and how much is going to be absorbed.

Now I understand an average, you quote 10%, but how does one take an average and compound that with an average over such small quantities and expect any real sort resolution to the results. The concentration of nicotine varies within the tobacco leaf itself. They have no way to accurately determine the actual nicotine level in a cigarette. But they can determine a fairly close approximation of how much nicotine is in a cigarette. And then to take that approximation and be like, your body see's this much nicotine. That is scientifically irresponsible.

Lastly, given that 100g of tobacco yields about 3g of nicotine (discovered through research of nicotine purification, I can link if requested). or approximately a 6.5oz can of rolling tobacco (A little more than a carton from experiences as a smoker) this comes out to be about 15mg per cigarette.

========== <- skid marks
FTC has testified about its methodology in determining the levels of tar and nicotine in cigarettes:

http:www.ftc.gov opa 2007 11 tar.shtm

So the FTC admits that having a machine smoke and measuring what is inside the machine is not good. Mind you the FTC measurements are what is available to the lungs to be absorbed into the blood stream.

I hate getting thrown for a loop like that lol. I was wrong for the right reasons.

So how can we accurately determine what our lungs see in different instances between smoking and vaping?

[DVap]

I was going to reply to telsie's post myself. But yours will actually do better. I always thought they stated the actual nicotine amount in the cigarette? It seems since the cigarette is a constant. There are X grams of tobacco which contain an average of Xmg nicotine per Xg of tobacco leading to Xmg per cigarette. We all know body chemistries are different, how would they mandate cigarettes report the amount of nicotine that enters one's blood stream when they do not know how fast it is going to be absorbed, and how much is going to be absorbed.

Now I understand an average, you quote 10%, but how does one take an average and compound that with an average over such small quantities and expect any real sort resolution to the results. The concentration of nicotine varies within the tobacco leaf itself. They have no way to accurately determine the actual nicotine level in a cigarette. But they can determine a fairly close approximation of how much nicotine is in a cigarette. And then to take that approximation and be like, your body see's this much nicotine. That is scientifically irresponsible.

Lastly, given that 100g of tobacco yields about 3g of nicotine (discovered through research of nicotine purification, I can link if requested). or approximately a 6.5oz can of rolling tobacco (A little more than a carton from experiences as a smoker) this comes out to be about 15mg per cigarette.

========== <- skid marks
FTC has testified about its methodology in determining the levels of tar and nicotine in cigarettes:

http:www.ftc.gov opa 2007 11 tar.shtm

So the FTC admits that having a machine smoke and measuring what is inside the machine is not good. Mind you the FTC measurements are what is available to the lungs to be absorbed into the blood stream.

I hate getting thrown for a loop like that lol. I was wrong for the right reasons.

So how can we accurately determine what our lungs see in different instances between smoking and vaping?

Wow.. good points throughout. As far as tobacco and nicotine content, it varies. For common nicotiana tabacum, 1% - 3% is common, with the blending generally putting it down toward the lower end of the range. On the other hand nicotiana rustica is loaded, pushing 10% at the stronger end of the range (though it's not commonly used in cigarettes). Your numbers for tobacco are certainly within the range that might be seen in the real world.

As far as what we get from an analog, it is protocol based, and the results are only as good as the protocol and only as good as our smoking behavior approximates the protocol. While a full flavor analog may be rated at 1 mg of nicotine, depending upon how aggressively it is smoked, I can imagine anywhere from 0.5 - 2 mg being absorbed, and that depends to some degree on depth of inhalation, time held, etc. There is a literal cluster-you-know-what of variables at work.

You are absolutely correct about the uncertainty, and problem is simply that while testing protocols generally attempt to model based on reality, reality is free to express a wider range of conditions, and thus feels no compulsion to adhere itself to testing protocols.

I would argue against the assertion that those who have found their level for vaping (mg and mL) necessarily have lower blood cotinine levels than when they smoked.

I want to know what mg and mL of e-liquid will produce the same blood cotinine levels as a pack of reds at the same time of day given say 2 days to equilibrate.

I've not looked at much data myself comparing blood cotinine for an individual vaping a certain mg and mL per day versus that same individual smoking a certain number of analogs at a certain strength. If someone could point me to research that compares this, I'd sure appreciate it so I could dissect it. If the testing (for example) has the subject smoking a pack per day of marlboro red's versus vaping 16 mg liquid at 1.5 mL per day, I can almost guarantee the blood cotinine level will be much higher for the tobacco, likely by a factor of around 2, because very simply, a 16 mg e-cig can't keep up with a full flavor cigarette.

When I see a blood cotinine comparison of 1.5 mL of 36 mg/day versus a pack a day of reds, then I'll be fascinated by the result... because I expect the blood cotinine levels to be very similar.

[telsie]

Back to the analog/vaping comparison. We had 20 full flavor analogs per day delivering 20 mg of nicotine per day. I've found that we need to vape 2.5X the nicotine, or 50 mg/day, so we might vape ~2.5 mL of 20 mg or ~1.5 mg of 36 mg. We're putting ~ 50 mg of nicotine onto the atomizer coil because of that 50 mg, only 40% or 20 mg of nicotine makes it into the vapor and into our bodies. So by vaping 50 mg of nicotine per day, we are delivering 20 mg of nicotine per day to our bodies.

Hope this helps!

That makes perfect sense. Thank you.

I always thought they stated the actual nicotine amount in the cigarette? It seems since the cigarette is a constant. There are X grams of tobacco which contain an average of Xmg nicotine per Xg of tobacco leading to Xmg per cigarette.

I was always under the impression that the stated nicotine levels in cigarettes were how much you get from them, not how much are in them at the start.

[DVap]

I was always under the impression that the stated nicotine levels in cigarettes were how much you get from them, not how much are in them at the start.

True.. but based on a smoking machine protocol. YMMV.

[Stubby]

Dvap, your posts are terrific. I've followed you in the other threads. Chemistry aside for a moment, the only bottom line for me is blood nicotine level and per puff nicotine delivery.

When e-smoking can move my blood nicotine level to what I had as a former 30-a-day cigarette smoker .. whoopee. Until then, I'm nicotine deprived as an e-smoker and get what I need from snus, nasal snuff, and disssolvables used at the same time as I vape 36mg liquid.

Have to agree with you TB. Here are some blood nicotine levels

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...ne-levels.html

Blood nicotine levels are on the low to very low side, and this using 3 mm of 36 mg liquid. Not very confidence inspiring.

I certainly do appreciate the work that Dvap has put in, but I do have some problems with the x2.5 theory. You seem to have cherry picked your successes, while ignoring the failures. To many people out their chain vaping 36 mm and still having problems. I would say that the x2.5 works for some people, but making a blanket statement that this is the formula that works is stretching it.

[Heed]

Have to agree with you TB. Here are some blood nicotine levels

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...ne-levels.html

Blood nicotine levels are on the low to very low side, and this using 3 mm of 36 mg liquid. Not very confidence inspiring.

I certainly do appreciate the work that Dvap has put in, but I do have some problems with the x2.5 theory. You seem to have cherry picked your successes, while ignoring the failures. To many people out their chain vaping 36 mm and still having problems. I would say that the x2.5 works for some people, but making a blanket statement that this is the formula that works is stretching it.

That's the same link I supplied in my earlier post So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine and the test subject (happily) posted directly following that post saying his levels were at about 15% of what would be expected: So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

And there's this http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...tml#post677284 post, that I also linked to in that earlier post of mine, from someone who took part in a clinical trial:

The conclusions from the study were basically that ecigs successfully inhibit cravings for smoking while not appearing to deliver as much nicotine. They took blood every 15 minutes for one sitting where i had to smoke analogs and one sitting where i got to smoke an ecig (crappy Crown7, worst e-cig i've ever used). They also monitored heart rate, blood pressure, and a bunch of lung tests (capacity, CO2, NO3, etc). E-cig day had much lower blood nicotine content, a small HR and BP increase, and almost no deviation from the control run on the lung tests when compared with the analog day.

[thunderhead777]

I know that being without a working PV for almost a month now (and not returning to analogs while I wait...and wait...and wait...and wait....and wait...and wait...and wait for my new PV order to arrive -- almost 2 weeks now) that I am constantly irritable and either overly hypertensive or ridiculously tired....or both at the same time.

Nicotine definitely gets into my system when I vape. I don't know how anyone could possibly go through 3ml in one day of juice. I bought a 50ml bottle from Parked a while back and it lasted me over a month. But then again I only like to vape for a few minutes when I first wake up in the morning, just before going to work, and for a little longer at the end of my work day.

It sure would be nice to get my order...

[Stubby]

The conclusions from the study were basically that ecigs successfully inhibit cravings for smoking while not appearing to deliver as much nicotine. They took blood every 15 minutes for one sitting where i had to smoke analogs and one sitting where i got to smoke an ecig (crappy Crown7, worst e-cig i've ever used). They also monitored heart rate, blood pressure, and a bunch of lung tests (capacity, CO2, NO3, etc). E-cig day had much lower blood nicotine content, a small HR and BP increase, and almost no deviation from the control run on the lung tests when compared with the analog day.

Which begs the question, how much is enough?

As has been stated, the set point for what levels of nicotine we need is very likely set, varies from individual to individual, and doesn't appear to change. Even it we get more then we need at times, we don't appear to increase our tolerance or need for nicotine, even after many years of smoking. So perhaps some people are getting enough, though likely on the low end of it to stave off the demons. For others, with a bit higher nicotine needs it's not doing it.

I have big problems with the one size fits all approach.

[four2109]

I don't find the 2.5 number off at all. People smoke differently. I smoked 2 packs a day of full flavor kings, but I always had one going. Many burned up in the ashtray while I was typing, surfing... Compared to a 1 pack a day friend who smoked only on breaks or while driving, never smoked while doing other things, stopped everything to SMOKE. She would finished a "100" way before I finished a "king". We may very well have absorbed the same amount of nicotine. Based on the 2.5 calculation, I probably only really smoked a pack a day. Just cost me twice as much!

[DVap]

I certainly do appreciate the work that Dvap has put in, but I do have some problems with the x2.5 theory. You seem to have cherry picked your successes, while ignoring the failures. To many people out their chain vaping 36 mm and still having problems. I would say that the x2.5 works for some people, but making a blanket statement that this is the formula that works is stretching it.

Will have to look at those test results.. thanks.

Of course this is not "the formula", it is simply one that has thus far proven to predict around 75% of the vapers from whom I've received input. I'm quite interested in the other 25%, for instance I was talking with TropicalBob.. he seems to be one of the folks who doesn't fit into the model, appearing to use perhaps 1.5 times what the model would suggest.

I do, perhaps naturally, prefer to point out the success rate of my model at prediction, but to ignore or attempt to brush under the carpet that (so far) 25% who aren't fitting would be bad science on my part. Currently, unless the "this model doesn't work" crowd starts to feed me data in greater numbers, I can say that more likely than not, the model works... and here's the important part.. based on my experience.

I think the usefulness of a model such as mine is not so much in trying to "nail down all possibilities", that would be a fool's errand, because it can't be done. the usefulness may be more in having a starting point where one could, for example, recommend a starting point to someone new to vaping, "Oh, you smoked two packs of reds per day? Try the 36 mg, and see if maybe 3 mL doesn't do the trick for you."