So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[olderthandirt]

I thought I had company over in the lurkers corner, how have you been frankie? ever try the snus?

[frankie1]

OTD: I did, once. I am not sure I can do that...kinda yucky! That may be a bit hard for me...I talk for a living!

[a2dcovert]

Have we come up with any concrete decissions as to what we can do to relieve the smoking withdrawal symptoms? I think that the medical community is satisfied that they have provided us with NRTs and they have done their job and it's our fault that we haven't been successful.

The poteneial profits in developing a working smoking detox system should be enough to attract some of the drug makers. I've been off of cigarettes for 7 months and that monkey on my back is getting heaver not lighter. My doctor is helping me but he is treating something he doesn't understand.

Kevin

[olderthandirt]

Hi covert
Don't recall off hand, have you tried any form of smokeless tobacco for your monkeys weight-gain?

[316lvm]

Thanks for replying kinabaloo and Ianan. I was not aware of the NZ study nor of the 45% absorption rate of nic.

I do agree with most that there is something missing from vaping vs, analogs. Since tobacco mixes are a proprietary recipe, we may not be able to find out all the ingredients in a given analog.

But that aside. I am looking at this from the perspective that it may not necessarily be anything in the analogs per se, but the chemical changes that take place in the brain.

For instance, Haldol - a psychotropic medication - when taken over a period of time produces a side effect of Tardive Dyskinesia or tics. It is a permanent effect and irreversible. Studies have shown that this medication permanently alters the chemical makeup and functioning of the brain. The only way to get the symptoms under control is with another medication.

I have seen mention of MAOI's pertaining to nic. MAOI's also produce permanent changes within the brain. Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors do the same.

Perhaps that is why some people are not feeling the effects of nic and require a higher dosage?

Regarding half life and metabolism. Most drugs have a half life or the amount of time a drug will be present in the body after ingestion ceases.

It is also known that metabolism can affect this. If a person metabolizes a drug faster than research has shown, then that person will require more drugs and at a higher delivery rate than someone else.

So, I was just looking at the possibility that it's not the nic per se, but the chemical changes that happen within the brain that maybe a factor in why some require more nic than others, and maybe that's why it's harder for some to quit than others.

Thank you again for the information both of you provided.

[a2dcovert]

No OTD, I haven't tried to a suppliment yet. The other side of my issue is that the higher levels of nicotine have a very negative effect on my acid reflux. My theory is that it doesn't matter how I receive the extra nicotine, it still has the same effect on my GI system. The reason I make that statement is that I have on a couple of instances I have had skin contact while mixing nic juice that had an imediate response in the form of acid reflux and GERD. I have noticed over the past months that when I vape at high levels say 26 to 36mg that I had the GI problem. I have reduced the nic levels and been able to see proof that reducing the nic levels has a positive effect on the GI problem. But, when I reduce the levels of nic juice say below 18mg my cigarette withdrawal symptoms return.

Now, also I will add that I am on heavy dosages of medication to relieve the GI symptoms as well. There is where my problem comes into focus. I am taking the maximum dosages of known cures for acid reflux. I am walking a very thin line right now because the GI problem is under control. But, the cigarette withdrawal symptoms are creeping up on me.

The easiest solution is to return to cigarettes. Which is exactly what I have done 2 times since 1986 after failed attempts at quitting. Why can't the medical community understand this and see why the NRT are failing. They are blaming it on lack of will power and or desire to quit. That's just not true. I don't want to smoke, I need to smoke.

Kevin

[DVap]

Their bet is on the anatabine and anabasine and my bet is the Harmala alkoloids (Harman and Norharman), considering that the researchers think that Acetaldehyde , which the tobacco companies were purposely adding to tobacco in addition to the amounts already in there naturally to make it even more addictive, gets converted to Harman in the body. It could be both.

My bet is starting to tend toward the minor alkaloids (nornicotine, anabasine, anabatine) rather than the trace components.

Note that nornicotine's half-life is ~8 hours, compared to <2 hours for nicotine. If we assume 2 and 8 hour half-lives, and 90 parts nicotine to 3 parts nornicotine in tobacco, the following is interesting.

Assume a single acute dose:

t = 0 hours
Nic = 90
NNic = 3

t = 8 hours
Nic = 5.6
Nnic = 1.5

With more continuous intake, nornicotine levels will elevate further relative to nicotine.

I'm not a fan of nornicotine, btw.

[kinabaloo]

In response to the questions about reducing withdrawal symptoms, something well worth considering is GABA, which is reasonably easy to obtain. In general, it acts as a stress/anxiety reliever. Research shows that is has a very significant effect on reducing the craving for nicotine/something missing.

GABA is something I did take for a while myself many years ago for stress but I want to study the science more before writing more on the topics (the various ways that GABA (a major neurotransmitter) interacts with various receptors affecting dopamine levels and more. I noted one item of research on GABA and nicotine in the beta carboline thread. And there's more out there.

[exogenesis]

Where do all the pages go

Thanks, Exogenesis!

My best friend is a homeopathic practitioner, and she has agreed (no promises) to try to get this package put together (not the 300+ pyridines compounds and 160+ alkaloids, just the list above).

I'm excited about the possibilities!

Rick.

Sorry, I should have given a better explanation. My friend does not rely only on Homeopathy. Contact is being made with various laboratories, to research the possbilties of producing an alcohol based compound containing desired alkaloids in the same proportions as tobacco.

Naturally, this would be for laboritory experimental purposes only.

However, if some accidentaly got mixed with my 36mg ECOPure KRYSTAL, and I accidentally vaped it, wouldn't that be interesting!

Rick.

Sounds an interesting plan, hope it's do-able,
but as DVap says the only 'pure' supply might be say 98% pure 'reagent grade',
which is certainly not intended for human consumption (how toxic is the other 2% ?).

Also the unknown combo-effects over over-boosting with the minor alkaloids,
might not give quite the effect expected, especially as noted (Dvap) above the
half-life-s are massively different, actually worse than above cos as you
continue to vape certain alkaloids levels would build up,
as the others stay 'level' (the nic) - but would that be true for ciggies as well?



Be interesting what you find out Kin.

[Pumaman]

No OTD, I haven't tried to a suppliment yet. The other side of my issue is that the higher levels of nicotine have a very negative effect on my acid reflux. My theory is that it doesn't matter how I receive the extra nicotine, it still has the same effect on my GI system. The reason I make that statement is that I have on a couple of instances I have had skin contact while mixing nic juice that had an imediate response in the form of acid reflux and GERD. I have noticed over the past months that when I vape at high levels say 26 to 36mg that I had the GI problem. I have reduced the nic levels and been able to see proof that reducing the nic levels has a positive effect on the GI problem. But, when I reduce the levels of nic juice say below 18mg my cigarette withdrawal symptoms return.

Now, also I will add that I am on heavy dosages of medication to relieve the GI symptoms as well. There is where my problem comes into focus. I am taking the maximum dosages of known cures for acid reflux. I am walking a very thin line right now because the GI problem is under control. But, the cigarette withdrawal symptoms are creeping up on me.

The easiest solution is to return to cigarettes. Which is exactly what I have done 2 times since 1986 after failed attempts at quitting. Why can't the medical community understand this and see why the NRT are failing. They are blaming it on lack of will power and or desire to quit. That's just not true. I don't want to smoke, I need to smoke.

Kevin

I am in the exact same GERD / Med situation, even posted a about it here:

Sudden onset nicotine sensitivity? Bizarre symptoms.

I now vape mostly 11-14 mg but carry a second 510 loaded with a higher nic for "urge" situations. Since I started, I have been using it less and less. May not work for everyone, but so far so good for me. I also found the extra flavor varietys, IE some domestic juices loaded up with Loranns, aggravated the GERD far more then the thinner commonly available liquids.