So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[IANAN]

Ianan - what was your pre-testing daily tobacco cigarette consumption?

Also, I've been reading your updates, but somewhere I missed the reference to "cat's claw?" What is that exactly - the method you're using or a particular substance? I understood you were taking some kind of supplements, eating chocolate and increasing coffee, correct?

I was in the suppliments section at the store today and found myself looking for something called "cats claw," lol!

20-15 a day and on good days 5 with vaping. 40-60+ before vaping.

Post 501 So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

The idea is to use dietary changes and relatively safe herbs to treat the symptoms of Tobacco addiction while using Nicotine. This is an alternative to creating a synthetic analog or using whole tobacco alkaloids.

I have 4 Tx conditions - a different set of herbs each week. Cat's Claw + 4 cups of coffee and 2 servings of chocolate is the Tx for week 1.

Cat's claw was hypothesized to be one of the weakest at subsiding cravings but beneficial to the GI system where as coffee and chocolate alone was hypothesized to be somewhat effective at treating the symptoms.

If you are in the herbal store look for Passion Flower instead of Cat's Claw.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I can't give a good answer atm. It might be that the vinyl form of GABA can cross the blood-brain barrier easier; seems unlikely but that could be the reason for the use of that binary compound, as opposed to just have a patentable form.

Rat studies showed dramatic craving decrease (of the form of there being reduced pleasure in consuming nic), but not sure how it was administered (from memory).

Thanks, kin. I'm on a journey to see what I find. Anything toxic I'll try to report back .

[kinabaloo]

I may not understand it completely, but, with the additional alkaloids to help, maybe people wouldn't need as much nicotine anyway?

Indeed. That's an additional 'saving' of perhaps 20%. But the interesting thing is: people probably do vape more in search of the elusive effect, but there are also grounds to suggest that high nic intake can partially substitute for the missing alkaloids; only partially mind, but higher dose nic does give something of a relaxation effect. But a poor substitute at the end of the day.

[kinabaloo]

That's the comfort I was gravitating to, Elf, thanks for the input . As a recovering alcoholic I'm familiar with the associated physical and psychological withdrawl and my heart has gone out to some I've known who attempt, but don't succeed in, a recovery program for ...... . For them, the depths of addiction was too deep to climb out of, regardless of the treatment. The best they could hope for was transition to another, less ruthless drug prescribed by a doctor and use as directed. Sadly, I think many of us addicted to tobacco could be in the same boat. In my case, the symptoms of depression are all too clear, as with many others here, and time only makes it more frustrating, not better. This tells me that, like a ...... addict, I'll more than likely always need something to keep a balanced mental state. I'll be riding it out for a while 'cause I know all I have to do is start smoking, again. But that said, I'm hardheaded enough to keep kicking the stones over along the road to see if I find any gold .

Smileys 2 - Sad faces 1

[rickghouse]

A lot of the numbers are in an article called

"The Less Harmful Cigarette: A Controversial Issue.
A Tribute to Ernst L. Wynder"

The article is here The less harmful cigarette: a controversial issue.... [Chem Res Toxicol. 2001] - PubMed result

And full text can be found here; http://www.starscientific.com/404/Ho...%20Article.pdf

Thanks, IANAN ... the article has a lot of information. However, it seems to fall short on the alkaloids:

Compound ............... ug/cigarette
nicotine .................. 100-3000
nornicotine .............. 5-150
anatabine ................ 5-15
anabastine ............... 5-12
other alkaloids .......... n.a.

I found another interesting site here.



Tobacco pyridine alkaloids
................................. Burley .........................Flue-cured
..................Average (mg/g)RSD% (n = 5) Average (mg/g)RSD% (n = 5)
Nicotine ..............45.29 ....... 3.8 ...................... 20.22 ...... 3.4
Nornicotine ..........0.745 ....... 5.5 ...................... 0.102 ...... 0.7
Anabasine ........... 0.229 ....... 1.4 ..................... 0.0933 ..... 1.3
Anatabine ........... 1.196 ....... 5.1 .................... 0.798 ....... 6.2
2,3′-bipyridyl ....... 0.0546 ..... 5.5 .................... 0.0188 ...... 3.0
Cotinine .............. 0.0497 ..... 1.2 .................... 0.0124 ...... 6.8

But looking at the vast difference in proportions of alkaloids between Burley and Flu-cured tobacco, I'm beginning to think I might be barking up the wrong tree. I've been looking for the correct proportions of the top few alkaloids, but it seems there are no correct proportions!

Maybe the answer would be "throw as many as possible in the mix" without focusing so much on quantities?



Rick.

[rickghouse]

Doing a web search will surely reveal more values, for the full 'real' info
someone might have to purchase some papers though.

Yes, that's what I'm finding.

The problem is, they want me to purchase the reports first, and then find out if they contain the information that I'm looking for!



Rick.

[IANAN]

anabasine, anatabine, myosmine, cotinine, harman and norharman have had animal studies done that would support they are involved in additional reinforcement of the nicotine.

Nornicotine and Acetaldehyde also have animal studies done that would suggest additive and/or synergistic effects with nicotine but both are very likely carcinogens also based on animal and human data.

Different curing (And blending) methods create different tasting tobacco- so yes it does effect it. You are seeing differing values because there are different blends of tobacco (24+ types) and curing methods based on the brand of cigarette.

[kinabaloo]

anabasine, anatabine, myosmine, cotinine, harman and norharman have had animal studies done that would support they are involved in additional reinforcement of the nicotine.

Nornicotine and Acetaldehyde also have animal studies done that would suggest additive and/or synergistic effects with nicotine but both are very likely carcinogens also based on animal and human data.

Different curing (And blending) methods create different tasting tobacco- so yes it does effect it. You are seeing differing values because there are different blends of tobacco (24+ types) and curing methods based on the brand of cigarette.

Agree. But want to add this:

Tobacco curing and HCA levels

A look at the figures suggests that the main effect of curing on this subset of alkaloids (the most predominant) is the oxidative conversion of nornicotine to cotinine. That sounds good but there is the possibility that unlisted HCAs might be increased by curing. This needs to be checked and brought into consideration too if indeed the case (in selecting best tobacco for WTA). That the anatabine and anabasine hold up or even increase slightly in % terms suggests this could be happening; while these alkaloids are desirable, most of the HCAs produced by heating are not.

* While Burley tobacco is cured ('air cured'), it is a drying without extra heating.

[kinabaloo]

Glycation and Aging (an aside, but important piece of biochemistry)

HCAs are one type of AGE (Advanced Glycation End-products) - basically reactions of carbohydrates/sugars and proteins; in the body this mechanism creates irreversible products from amino acids that are part of our cells, that often crosslink and render increasing amounts of our tissues non-functional; brain plaques might be an example (the most obvious symptom of glycation is the loss of skin tone as we get older). Together with oxidative damage (is also involved in AGE creation), DNA damage and falling hormone levels (the last two partly 'preprogrammed' but rate/extent controlled by diet and lifestyle (environment)), it is one of the main mechanisms by which we get old. While most AGEs are formed in the cells of the body, external consumption is not desirable as many preformed AGEs are mutagenic.

[Vaporer]

Ianan, something that might be of benefit with your approach.

Smoking &Tobacco Use:
Bananas can also help people trying to give up smoking. The B6, B12 they contain, as well as the potassium and magnesium found in them, help the body recover from the effects of nicotine withdrawal.

Depression: According to a recent survey undertaken by MIND amongst people suffering from depression, many felt much better after eating a banana. This is because bananas contain tryptophan, a type of protein that the body converts into serotonin, known to make you relax, improve your mood and generally make you feel happier.