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Thread: Some notes on nicotine, absorption, addictiveness and MAOIs

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinabaloo View Post
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    The thing is, we cannot escape getting oxidised, and why live just a little bit longer by worrying about everything and not enjoying life?!
    And then there is that! Always try to maintain a perspective!

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    kin: My little brain is struggling trying to understand at least some of the information in the Guide....LOL. Don't confuse me! Are you saying that the roasting destroys the MAOI in the bean?

    Am I understanding that coffee may have MAOI and could be replacing some of the MAOI that we are missing in cigarettes? I have read a number of comments that indicate that people drink less coffee after smoking cessation. Do I have it backwards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by olderthandirt View Post
    And then there is that! Always try to maintain a perspective!
    LOL I agree....I just am trying to avoid the heebie jeebies and I would really like to quit cigarettes as I can tell how badly they are affecting my ability to breathe!

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    PV Master ECF Veteran kinabaloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frankie1 View Post
    kin: My little brain is struggling trying to understand at least some of the information in the Guide....LOL. Don't confuse me! Are you saying that the roasting destroys the MAOI in the bean?

    Am I understanding that coffee may have MAOI and could be replacing some of the MAOI that we are missing in cigarettes? I have read a number of comments that indicate that people drink less coffee after smoking cessation. Do I have it backwards?
    It might, a bit. But my point was that roasting is basically slow burning. Cooking that creates any 'browning' produces potentially hazardous chemicals. But I'm drinking it right now. As with nicotine, not entirely good, but I like it, and after weighing up the pros and cons, they are both on the menu, in (a kind of) moderation, naturally

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    And with that said....I am making a cup! The Guide is very interesting, albeit a challenge for the non-scientifically inclined! I will keep the information handy as it could prove very useful in the future as age progresses and, I'm sure, more prescriptions are in my future...sigh.

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    Thank you so much. This thread is a huge relief!

    I just started vaping a couple of weeks ago, and I love it! In the period since my starter kit arrived, I have been smoking one or two analogs a day when I find myself between batteries. Today, I received a third battery and an extra charger--whoo hoo!

    When I ordered the starter kit, I had no intention of giving up regular smoking, but I actually prefer the vaping to smoking. However, I find that I vape pretty much nonstop. Will this subside in time naturally? I am using 18 mg juice. Should I increase to 24 mg for a while as I move away from analogs completely or just keep vaping constantly?

  7. #27
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    I know this is an old thread but it's getting some links...

    On the question of why ecigarettes appear to provide only 10% of the nicotine available to cigarette smokers, as measured in one or more trials: it depends on exactly what is being referred to and how it was measured. For example, are we talking about blood nicotine levels, or vapor / smoke nicotine levels obtained by machine smoking devices?

    1. Vapor measurements
    If measured in vapor sourced from a machine, then 4 factors need adjusting to compensate for the fact that an ecigarette is not comparable in most ways to a cigarette (it's held in the hand and placed in the mouth - but after that, everything else is different).

    • The liquid needs to be the strongest available since only 36mg liquid is designed to replicate a cigarette's effect. All weaker liquids are for 'withdrawal-phase' use, they are not designed to equal a cigarette. They are the equivalent of a super-light super-mild super-low-tar cigarette - which presumably isn't what was supposed to be being measured.
    • The ecig needs to be prepared by an expert since otherwise it can fail to work or under-deliver (proven by several trials).
    • The inhale pressure needs to be reduced from the cigarette inhale pressure, since inhaling via an ecig is much lighter, a hard inhale may cause a fail in several ways.
    • The inhale period needs to be variable at the very least up to 6 seconds since the minimum inhale time for a standard ecig is 4 seconds, and some users double that. A cigarette is only inhaled for 1 second, perhaps 2 seconds max. There are multiple reasons why a short inhale does not work for an ecig, such as atomizer temperature for example.


    Unless an expert advisor is available to assist with ecigarette setup and machine settings, the result will be worthless - as is shown. An e-cigarette may in some cases look similar to a tobacco cigarette but there the similarity ends.

    2. Blood nicotine measurements
    If measured via blood serum nicotine level, then the single thing we know for sure about ecigarettes in research trials, as evidenced by the fact that several different trials had the same result, is:

    If a new ecigarette user, with a new ecigarette, is deliberately isolated from expert advice as to how to specify the correct materials, how to set up the product correctly and how to use it correctly, then they will get little or no nicotine in the bloodstream as a result of using it.

    An ecigarette used in a research trial cannot work correctly and is proven not work correctly when the specification, preparation and usage methods are controlled by researchers and not experienced ecigarette users. The basic problem is that researchers assume an ecigarette is comparable in some way to a tobacco cigarette - but as we know, just about every single setup and usage factor is different.

    Apart from anything else, new users ought to be given the strongest possible liquid since even correction of their technique will not provide perfect results; and need to be shown how to inhale (for a minimum of 4 seconds); how to hold the vapor in the mouth and then exhale through the nose (as most nicotine absorption is in the mouth and nose and not in the lungs); and that an ecig (exactly like a Nicorette medical nicotine inhaler) must be used for 15 or 20 minutes in order to ingest sufficient nicotine since the lungs are not greatly involved.

    Blood nicotine levels measured in new users, with the wrong liquid, with incorrect setup, with faulty units (as admitted by one research group who noted that some units didn't appear to work at all, although, strangely, this did not seem to be a serious enough reason to do anything about it), and without any advice such as the vital facts that the inhale time is multiplied by a factor of from 4 to 8 over a cigarette, or that the usage time is multiplied by a factor of 3 or 4, are likely to be either minuscule or even non-existent.

    So as regards the '10%' finding, we see that there are multiple reasons for this, which all boil down to the fact that even sympathetic researchers don't seem to have a clue. Until this basic omission is redressed, all 'research' into nicotine delivery is frankly worthless. As should be patently obvious to the meanest of intellects, if ecigs delivered nicotine on this laughable scale, few would use them. It may well be true that a nicotine level of just 30% of that provided by a cigarette might be sufficient in some cases, but there is a difference between 10 and 30%.

    It seems that the only thing that researchers are not able to divine is that they are not competent to manage such a trial.


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    Last edited by rolygate; 06-30-2010 at 02:43 PM.

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    I'm really glad I stumbled across this information. Since I began vaping 4 weeks ago I've noticed a slight depression. I used to have serious depression years ago but for the last 2 or 3 years I've been depression free. So this sudden onset of a mild but irritating depression was a concern.

    I knew it was possibly related to the MAOI's I was no longer getting. However, I did not know until reading this that it was causing lower levels of all the mood related chemicals in my brain.

    I think I'm starting to feel better 4 weeks into vaping w/o smoking analogs. However, I did smoke half an analog this afternoon. Although that was primarily to get a guage of where my nicotine level was overall.

    I'm considering taking some St. John's Wort if this issue doesn't clear up in the next couple of days/weeks. The other option is to smoke an occasional analog as needed.

    I'd rather quit smoking entirely, however, if I could get away with only smoking a ciggy a day and avoid depression I'd definitely do it. Though the idea would be to gradually reduce tobacco consumption over time. This is probably what I should have done to begin with. However, being a bit uninformed I decided to not smoke ever again upon recieving my PV.

    I know that has worked for many people. I'm not sure it was such a great idea for me though. Given my past issues with depression and the fact that my current environment would be depression inducing for many is likely why I noticed the ill effects.

    Anyway, just wanted to thank the original poster and all of those who contributed. Just knowing the root cause of the issue has made me feel better.

    -Danyulc

  9. #29
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    You should try some smokeless tobacco instead of smoking tobacco, far, far less risk in smokeless. (2% of the risk of analogs max.) St. John's Wort made my depressions even worse when I tried it, a few years ago.

    Vote in the polls, vapers, we need numbers!

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    Thanks for the info! I actually used smokeless tobacco a few years back. For a couple months I was using Copenhagen pouches. Got a serious nicotine buzz from them as well.

    I'm only smoking a half of a 100 cigarette per day at the moment, sometimes only once every other day. So I figure it shouldn't be more than a week or so now before I can stop entirely.

    I've decided against the St Johns Wort just because I seem to be slowly getting better. It's also helped that I've found something fun to do to occupy my time. Playing Final Fantasty 12 on my PC via PCSX2 emulator, lol. Runs pretty good but had to O/C my dual core athlon to 3.1ghz to make it fast enough.

    I'm not really sure how much of my depression was related to going through a period of boredom. I'm not really sure how much was MAOI/Tobacco related either. Everything seems to have worked itself out for now though. Since starting with the PV a little over a month ago I've smoked maybe 2.5 cigarettes.

    So in all I'd say it was definitely worth the hardship to make the switch. The depression was never really severe, but annoying none the less. Definitely worth it though as I believe it's mostly in the past and I'm almost entirely smoke free now.

    I've got 4 cigarettes left and I don't intend on buying another pack. Perhaps one more if I absolutely have to, but, it doesn't seem like it will be necessary! Really helped finding something interesting to occupy my time. Being injured and unable to work atm means that I've a ton of free time to fill. Which can be nice, but, can also be terribly boring. Especially when you've no money to spend!

    Should be able to rehabilitate my knee and resume working within the next couple months if everything goes according to plan. Might need some smokeless tobacco then though, lol.

    -Danyulc

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