Nicotine Overdose, Possible?

[Drewsworld]

One point that is often overlooked is the difference between L-Nicotine and D-Nicotine...Many liquids on the market if not all currently available use D-nicotine(Dextrorotatory) which is not easily absorbed and or processed...Snus however employ L-Nicotine (Levorotatory) which binds and absorbs much better...Levorotatory is to deliver twice the effect of Dextrorotatory Nictine and are believed to be MUCH more satisfying to those craving Nicotine...The cost is pretty dramatic however some USA manufacturers recently began offering it...It has a clean strong hit that will surely become popular with many Vapers...I recently tried some and found 16 Mg to be EXTREMLY satisfying and felt like I had too much for the first time in months...
Drew

[DVap]

One point that is often overlooked is the difference between L-Nicotine and D-Nicotine...Many liquids on the market if not all currently available use D-nicotine(Dextrorotatory) which is not easily absorbed and or processed...Snus however employ L-Nicotine (Levorotatory) which binds and absorbs much better...Levorotatory is to deliver twice the effect of Dextrorotatory Nictine and are believed to be MUCH more satisfying to those craving Nicotine...The cost is pretty dramatic however some USA manufacturers recently began offering it...It has a clean strong hit that will surely become popular with many Vapers...I recently tried some and found 16 Mg to be EXTREMLY satisfying and felt like I had too much for the first time in months...
Drew

Drew,

I think you've been mislead.

The dextrorotatory (+)-nicotine (or D-Nicotine), is not the naturally produced stereoisomer. The nicotine that is produced in nature is the levorotatory (-)-nicotine (or L-Nicotine).

Any natural product (tobacco, snus, etc) will contain the (-)-nicotine, and any product purified from tobacco (such as the nicotine found in e-liquid) will also contain the (-)-nicotine.

(+)-nicotine has to be produced synthetically, and generally when produced it is produced as a racemic mix (a mix of (-)-nicotine and (+)-nicotine). To produce pure (+)-nicotine requires optically active intermediates, and is quite expensive.

Synthetic nicotine whether, (-)-nicotine, (+)-nicotine, or a racemic +/- mix will by it's nature be more expensive than purified natural (-)-nicotine. One needs a pretty specific reason to use a synthetic nicotine when natural nicotine is abundant and fairly easy to purify.

I'll ask Kurt to throw his hat in on this one as well... to double check my understanding on this.

Edit:

Here's some pricing I found for reagent nicotine:

>98% synthetic (+/-) nicotine
1 gram @ $413.00

>99% (-)-nicotine
500 mL (~500 g) @ $804.00

So the synthetic (+/-)-nicotine sells for $413/gram at 98+% purity while the natural (-)-nicotine sells for $1.61/gram at 99+% purity.

The price of pure (+)-nicotine is obscene, if you can even find it.

[Stubby]

Drew: Never heard of D or L nicotine, but not being a scientist that's not surprising. As far as I know snus doesn't use any particular type of nicotine as it's a whole tobacco product. It does have a high PH to free base the nicotine to make for easy uptake via the mucus membrane. I googled L and D nicotine and found little real information (at least that I could understand).

Edit: I see DVap posted while I was typing. Never mind

[Drewsworld]

Nicotine is optically active, having two enantiomeric forms. The naturally-occurring form of nicotine is levorotatory. The dextrorotatory form, (+)-nicotine, has only one-half the physiological activity of (–)-nicotine. It is therefore weaker in the sense that a higher dose is required to attain the same effects. The salts of (+)-nicotine are usually dextrorotatory.

As nicotine enters the body, it is distributed quickly through the bloodstream and can cross the blood-brain barrier. On average it takes about seven seconds for the substance to reach the brain when inhaled. The half life of nicotine in the body is around two hours.

The amount of nicotine absorbed by the body from smoking depends on many factors, including the type of tobacco, whether the smoke is inhaled, and whether a filter is used. For chewing tobacco, dipping tobacco, snus and snuff, which are held in the mouth between the lip and gum, or taken in the nose, the amount released into the body tends to be much greater than smoked tobacco. Nicotine is metabolized in the liver by cytochrome P450 enzymes (mostly CYP2A6, and also by CYP2B6). A major metabolite is cotinine.

Other primary metabolites include nicotine N’-oxide, nornicotine, nicotine isomethonium ion, 2-hydroxynicotine and nicotine glucuronide. Gluconuration and oxidative metabolism of nicotine to cotinine are both inhibited by menthol, an additive to mentholated cigarettes, thus increasing the half-life of nicotine in vivo.



Hey DVap,
Nice to see you...I have Lurked through almost every post you have ever written here!!!
Anyways, the info I was probably misquoting is above...When I was saying the cost is more, I was referring to the currently available Eliquids, and not so much the raw nicotine itself...Thanks
Drew

[a2dcovert]

Well, nicotine is toxic in the pure form, it is after all used as a pesticide.

I know they tell folks who are on the nic patch not to smoke for reasons of overdose which would cause nausea, headach, hot flashes etc.

If you had high blood presure and/or a heart problem, I would think constent vaping of say 36mg nic could be fatal.

It is true that nicotine a stimulant and has been known to raise heart rate up 10% in some people. I already take medication that compensates for the elevated heart rate. I wouldn't go as far to say that an overdose of nicotine would cause death in heart patients though. I have talked to several people who have OD'd on nicotine simply from smoking while using a nic patch. It's not a fun feeling for anyone.

[tunabubblegum]

It is true that nicotine a stimulant and has been known to raise heart rate up 10% in some people. I already take medication that compensates for the elevated heart rate. I wouldn't go as far to say that an overdose of nicotine would cause death in heart patients though. I have talked to several people who have OD'd on nicotine simply from smoking while using a nic patch. It's not a fun feeling for anyone.

LOL!! yeah, I guess you would have to work on it to get a lethal dose of nic. Maybe a few cartons of 24mg patches glued to your body plus chain smoking Camels

[quasimod]

[...] Other than the slight nausea I have never experienced anything like you did. [...]

Me either. A bit of nausea or indigestion when I've overdone it with the vape. Once (a couple of years ago) when I was trying to stop smoking, I was wearing the patch, chewing the gum, and using a Nicotrol Inhaler. Yes, all at the same time. Still wanted a smoke, so I lit one up. A little nausea, a little sweating on my forehead and upper lip. It went away pretty quick.

[a2dcovert]

The real wildcard here is the e-cig. There are way too many variables involved in each individual's different method of vaping, strength of the nic juice, and the frequency of drags. Cigarettes and smokeless tobacco have lots of data available as to the amount of nicotine delivered.

[Kurt]

Hey all, thought I'd add my $0.02 to the enantiomer debate. DVap is right, as far as I know. A non-natural stereo isomer is going to be a PITA to synthesize pure. Generally to save money it is the racemic mixture, like cheapo Vitamin E.

Drew, I'm not sure where you are getting this information, but I do not think it is true, from a purely economical standpoint. Synthesis would economically favor a racemic mixture vastly over a non-natural enantio-pure product. The reagents needed for asymmetric synthesis, which would be required, are not cheap at all, and the process is rarely 100% enantio-pure. Chiral separation is a pain, and for what? To get a form that is not absorbed well and doesn't have as strong of a neurological response, when simple acid-base extraction is cheap, easy (for a lab, folks), and gives the form of nic that everyone wants.

More importantly, d-nic is NOT physiologically the same as l-nic. Biologically it is a different compound, with similar affects, but probably a lot of other less obvious effects that in the long term might be a problem.

Here is an example playing out now in the vitamin world. Natural vitamin E is an enantiomer. But its not as easy to extract and purify as it is to synthesize the racemic mixture of both enantiomers. Thus cheap CVS Vit-E is a racemic mixture, only half of which is the correct enantiomer. The problem is the other enantiomer is not just less beneficial as the natural one, it may well be a cardio-toxin! Studies are actually showing this.

If, and this is a big if, there are companies selling d-nic, then they have more of a problem than just selling something that doesn't work as well as l-nic, since it is not derived from tobacco, given this recent ruling, the FDA could and IMO should ban it entirely. It is a different compound physiologically than tobacco-based nic. They might as well be selling amphetamine.

If you can, Drew, or DVap, or any other chemist here (I don't have access to or money to buy a stereoscope), measure the optical rotation of nic in various unflavored juices. Only the nic should rotate the light at all. They are not expensive, and the light source can be a simple desk lamp. The specfic rotation is [α]D = –166.4°. but I forget the concentration standard. If there are d-nics out there, I want to know who those companies are, so I can contact them, as if it turns out I'm not vaping l-nic, I'm going to be really pissed off. And those companies should be taken to court for dangerously misleading the customers. And no federal court ruling will help them, as it is not the correct compound, plain and simple.

[blondeambition3]

I thought that this topic should moved to it's own thread.

If any of you are wondering if it is possible to OD on nicotine, I can answer that question. Yes, you can OD on nicotine and I demonstrated that this afternoon. The problem that made it worse was the symptoms resembled the nicotine withdrawal symptoms at first. My hands were trembling and I was getting very jittery. So I assumed that the withdrawal symptoms were getting real bad. I didn't think about anything except that I wanted these problems to go away.

Now, here is the scary part, I was sucking on a Thunder extra strong wintergreen snus portion (16mg) and vaping 24mg on my pass through. When the problem started I took out that snus and put in another one, thinking that I needed more nicotine. All this time I was vaping with the pass through. I was doing this thinking that soon I would get that familar mellow feeling when I got caught up with the nic I needed. But something was wrong, I wasn't getting any satisfaction no matter what I did. So, I started thinking that maybe I was headed toward that nervious breakdown I had been afraid I would have if I couldn't solve this withdrawal problem. But, in reality I wasn't thinking straight at all. So I said that I wasn't going over the deep end, I decided to light up an analog and put this thing out of it's misery.

Well I did, and that put me over the edge. I started getting very classic food poisoning symptoms. Sick at my stomach and slight headache. I did finally lose my lunch litterally. Then I started to recognized what might have happened and started drinking some fluids. Soon I started feeling better and better as time passed. It was very clear what had just happened. I had OD'd on nicotine.

So if you ever want someone to try something to see if it could be done I'm your guy. I guess I should change my handle to Super Dave Osborn.

One bright light on this is that I don't think you could be really hurt by OD'ng on nicotine by normal usage, unless you up and drink a whole bottle of 100mg nic juice. What's really bad for me is that I didn't recognize what was going on. This is because whether it's too much nicotine or too little you might not be thinking very clearly. So probably the worst that can happen with normal use is you might make yourself sick (which is what we thought would happen all along).

Now I didn't make a fool out of myself by posting this here for no reason. I could have gone on and not told anyone about this. But, I hope by telling you about this serves as a lesson for someone else.

Needless to say I have had no snus in my mouth for the past 6 hours and have not vaped very much at all. So be careful out there and don't go on a binge trying to get caught up with your nicotine intake. You might just make yourself sick in the process.

I appreciate your sharing this... it took a lot of courage and it will undoubtedly 'help' a lot of People who read the post.... you 'enlightened' me as I (for one) get carried away sometimes & vape for hours...

Thank you