SXmini M Class (TEMP CONTROL)

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JimScotty0

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Haven't watched yet but just got a msg Rip has something up on the Sxmini m


It was a very quick initial review and not much details in the few minutes of this video. He did seem to really like it with the exception of the battery cap of which I don't have any problems with it. You will notice that he does his usual repeatable cloud puffing and he is using a Lemo 2 only set to 20J on the SX at 420F degrees. Since I just receive my Lemo 2 this afternoon I am about to build on it in a few minutes myself.
 

chia

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Well Busardo is pretty spot on for the mini m.. Especially on the early adopter part. The SX is way more pleasant is the way it fires and heat the coil compared to the dna40, which sometimes ramps up the wattage too much in the initial stage.. But as he said, the info presented can be overwhelming at times..
 

PapaPro

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The difference I think Phil found was the same as me. Low Temp makes a huge difference too. So maybe there is a relationship between high J and low temp or high temp and low J. We will all learn more over the coming weeks.

I don't know why but I felt so sorry for Phil watching that video. It seemed he was not himself. Maybe someone was under the desk holding a gun at some vital parts? he just seemed a little sad. Hope he is ok .

Phil did good I think. Nice video with lots of his findings. I would like to see some more advanced reviews as we learn more.

Good stuff and thanks all
 

JimScotty0

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Can I use an ultrasonic cleaner with a table spoon of washing up liquid to clean my Ni200 coils?
That would probably work but I would really rinse it off good or else you could just wind up with a soap taste instead of a machine oil taste. I just put a length of NI200 in the ultrasonic cleaner myself but I use cheap Vodka for a solution.
 
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PapaPro

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That would probably work but I would really rinse it off good or else you could just wind up with a soap taste instead of a machine oil taste. I just put a length of NI200 in the ultrasonic cleaner myself but I use cheap Vodka for a solution.

That was very kind of you Jim! Just what I needed to know. I would use soap and then rinse and a clean water ultrasonic clean after. So a 10 min total. I don't have any alcahol unfortunately. Only some beer and that is mine!

Cheers!
 
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dr g

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one thing a lot of people haven't mentioned was the ting he said in the video "if the sx mini was my first try at TC I would have been an early adopter"

that one sentence says quite a bit...basically I take that as, the DNA was way to figgety and he just tossed it to the side, the sxmini is much easier as hes said several times that he is a lazy vapor and most importantly he does not have much experience with TC, we all started that at or about the same time if we were early adopters of the dna40, of which I was, and many of us were, so wrapping the coils and all is no big deal to some, but to him its still a learning curve.
to me that puts a lot of what he says in regards to TC on sx into perspective
he's coming at it from almost a noob level. and even e is digging it at that.

This is actually incorrect. His problem with the DNA boiled down almost entirely to refinement and what he perceived as the inconsistency it caused. That's why he keeps saying he'll be interested to try the DNA with atty lock (oddly enough I think he has one in the video).

He also says that the experience with the SXJ benefits from all these months of learning about TP and how to build ni200 coils. For example we already know that building 28g or larger coils is ideal for ni200 because of its properties, etc. If he had been building thinwire coils and going through that learning process, coupled with the SXJ's issues with that type of coil, he probably would have had additional things to say about it.

Remember that phil was a beta tester for the DNA40 and had done a lot of work with it before his review.
 
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dam718

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Is Tapatalk working with the new forums? That's good news if it is, the mods were debating whether to add that functionality.

The reason I mention that I believe the modulation they are using is Pulse Amplitude Modulation was based more on a bit of research I've done on PAM, and how they use a fixed "sample" rate (The 20ms rate). Every 20ms they are sending a small pulse. When it hits temp limiting, it only sends an impulse when it needs to in order to maintain temps at the temp limit.

Prior to hitting the temp limit, it is sending an impulse at an amplitude that varies based on the joule setting, and it is sending those impulses every 20ms. You can see as well that during the initial ramp up, the amplitude slowly rises from 0V to whatever voltage it ends up at. At the 20ms sample rate, and varying amplitudes on the way there, when you zoom out and look at the entire fire cycle, rather than looking at individual impulses, you can see that it is attempting to recreate an analog positive wave form.

I'll see if I can find a pic or 2...

In a PAM circuit, there is a train signal always present, the carrier signal... It is at a fixed frequency. Each impulse will be fired on those carrier signals. In our case, they are at 20ms, or a sample rate of 50Hz.

Even in Vlad's scope readouts you can see the carrier signal. In his pics the scope is zoomed way in so you can see the 50Hz sample rate more clearly. Each impulse lasts only 20ms. I have stolen Phil's (shh! Don't tell!) for reference, because it shows the entire firing cycle...

SX350J - Normal - 50J_zpsdum367yo.jpg


If you look at the beginning of the firing cycle you can see where it is firing one impulse for every sample, and changing the amplitude of every impulse as it ramps up to the joules setting. Once the liquid starts to dry it no longer has to fire to maintain temp, so it only fires as necessary, and only as part of the carrier signal (You can see that in Vlad's pics better).

Pulse-Amplitude-Modulation.jpg


If it were in Pulse Frequency Modulation, as suggested, that would imply that the frequency is being shifted to achieve the desired wave form. A close inspection of the signal reveals that the frequency never shift from the 50Hz carrier signal, only the amplitude of the impulses. The amplitude of the carrier signal when no impulse is required is extremely low, but ever present.

Hah, sorry if that's way too techno geek. I'm just not seeing PWM, or PFM. Not in their traditional sense. I do see textbook PAM though.
 

Vlad1

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The difference I think Phil found was the same as me. Low Temp makes a huge difference too. So maybe there is a relationship between high J and low temp or high temp and low J. We will all learn more over the coming weeks.

I don't know why but I felt so sorry for Phil watching that video. It seemed he was not himself. Maybe someone was under the desk holding a gun at some vital parts? he just seemed a little sad. Hope he is ok .

Phil did good I think. Nice video with lots of his findings. I would like to see some more advanced reviews as we learn more.

Good stuff and thanks all

You know I kind of thought the same thing about him. Just not quite the typical Phil. A little tired a bit rushed idk. I know there's a lot of work that goes into testing a temperature limiting device it's basically like testing two devices. But it just didn't seem to be as thorough as some others I've seen. I know he stated he'd had a horrible day at work and he was editing at 04:00 which was why the weight ended up getting skipped. Maybe he needs a vaping gear vacation and take his SXmini m up to the lake for a few days and no one bother him. :)
 
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Jonny5

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did you run it till dead? I don't know how I got that from a 25r. especially at those settings.

msloud that wrap is too cool. I have the lavender rings too. is that a full or mini sub? I really need a wrap to protect it this time. s-class is mirror finish now.

if I run it out of juice I get dry hits. I don't mean empty but too fast. how could it prevent that or are my settings too high? dna does the same.

I could put it on scope if no one has. not tonight though.

Unfortunately I've been seeing a lot of pics of people who put a wrap on their M Class, removed it a few weeks later etc, and the paint peeled when they removed it. So it seems you're damned if you wrap it and damned if you don't. I have a wrap shipping to me but after seeing what's happening to the paint once the wrap is removed, I might wait for a silicon case. Just wanted to give you a heads up.
 

dam718

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Dam718, that's a pretty good observation there. I guess the question is whether those other pulses are the same as the larger pulses or whether they are detection pulses and the larger responses are triggered.

In your example, what would be the detection method?

I can't honestly answer this, as I'm not 100% sure. My educated guess is that the board is evaluating resistance every 20ms, otherwise how else would it know to stop and start firing? In Vlad's scope readings you can see a tiny little disturbance in the leading edge of each carrier signal, that disturbance may be where it is evaluating resistance just prior to the impulse trigger.
 

Vlad1

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Is Tapatalk working with the new forums? That's good news if it is, the mods were debating whether to add that functionality.

The reason I mention that I believe the modulation they are using is Pulse Amplitude Modulation was based more on a bit of research I've done on PAM, and how they use a fixed "sample" rate (The 20ms rate). Every 20ms they are sending a small pulse. When it hits temp limiting, it only sends an impulse when it needs to in order to maintain temps at the temp limit.

Prior to hitting the temp limit, it is sending an impulse at an amplitude that varies based on the joule setting, and it is sending those impulses every 20ms. You can see as well that during the initial ramp up, the amplitude slowly rises from 0V to whatever voltage it ends up at. At the 20ms sample rate, and varying amplitudes on the way there, when you zoom out and look at the entire fire cycle, rather than looking at individual impulses, you can see that it is attempting to recreate an analog positive wave form.

I'll see if I can find a pic or 2...

In a PAM circuit, there is a train signal always present, the carrier signal... It is at a fixed frequency. Each impulse will be fired on those carrier signals. In our case, they are at 20ms, or a sample rate of 50Hz.

Even in Vlad's scope readouts you can see the carrier signal. In his pics the scope is zoomed way in so you can see the 50Hz sample rate more clearly. Each impulse lasts only 20ms. I have stolen Phil's (shh! Don't tell!) for reference, because it shows the entire firing cycle...

SX350J - Normal - 50J_zpsdum367yo.jpg


If you look at the beginning of the firing cycle you can see where it is firing one impulse for every sample, and changing the amplitude of every impulse as it ramps up to the joules setting. Once the liquid starts to dry it no longer has to fire to maintain temp, so it only fires as necessary, and only as part of the carrier signal (You can see that in Vlad's pics better).

Pulse-Amplitude-Modulation.jpg


If it were in Pulse Frequency Modulation, as suggested, that would imply that the frequency is being shifted to achieve the desired wave form. A close inspection of the signal reveals that the frequency never shift from the 50Hz carrier signal, only the amplitude of the impulses. The amplitude of the carrier signal when no impulse is required is extremely low, but ever present.

Hah, sorry if that's way too techno geek. I'm just not seeing PWM, or PFM. Not in their traditional sense. I do see textbook PAM though.

Tired, not really wanting to think right now but ignoring the first two seconds that were in soft, standard, powerfull or powerfull+ mode where do you see the signal amplitude change?
 

dr g

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I can't honestly answer this, as I'm not 100% sure. My educated guess is that the board is evaluating resistance every 20ms, otherwise how else would it know to stop and start firing? In Vlad's scope readings you can see a tiny little disturbance in the leading edge of each carrier signal, that disturbance may be where it is evaluating resistance just prior to the impulse trigger.

but if that's a detect pulse... hm. does the fact that that specific pulse could not be modulated change whether it's PAM or not?
 

JimScotty0

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The difference I think Phil found was the same as me. Low Temp makes a huge difference too. So maybe there is a relationship between high J and low temp or high temp and low J. We will all learn more over the coming weeks.

I don't know why but I felt so sorry for Phil watching that video. It seemed he was not himself. Maybe someone was under the desk holding a gun at some vital parts? he just seemed a little sad. Hope he is ok .

Phil did good I think. Nice video with lots of his findings. I would like to see some more advanced reviews as we learn more.

Good stuff and thanks all
Phil did said at the beginning of the first video that he had a "miserable day at work, absolutely miserable" and he even said that if he comes off cranky in the video it is not our fault or the device's fault but that he had a "miserable day at work today" and he even put both hands up with fingers pointing while saying it. Yeah, he didn't look at peace with himself to say the least like we usually see him. In fact I would say that this is the worst that I have seen him and do wish him well and do thank him for what he does.
 

JimScotty0

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I can also see where that tube as ugly as it is would be a good add on for battery longevity. What do you guys think. I have no need for 120w but I have noticed the battery sag although not as noticable around 20J. Crank it up and watch it. That would definately solve that. I think I read someone who had one say that.
Technonut is using the battery tube to get more battery life in TC mode and seems to like it.
 

JimScotty0

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Is Tapatalk working with the new forums? That's good news if it is, the mods were debating whether to add that functionality.

The reason I mention that I believe the modulation they are using is Pulse Amplitude Modulation was based more on a bit of research I've done on PAM, and how they use a fixed "sample" rate (The 20ms rate). Every 20ms they are sending a small pulse. When it hits temp limiting, it only sends an impulse when it needs to in order to maintain temps at the temp limit.

Prior to hitting the temp limit, it is sending an impulse at an amplitude that varies based on the joule setting, and it is sending those impulses every 20ms. You can see as well that during the initial ramp up, the amplitude slowly rises from 0V to whatever voltage it ends up at. At the 20ms sample rate, and varying amplitudes on the way there, when you zoom out and look at the entire fire cycle, rather than looking at individual impulses, you can see that it is attempting to recreate an analog positive wave form.

I'll see if I can find a pic or 2...

In a PAM circuit, there is a train signal always present, the carrier signal... It is at a fixed frequency. Each impulse will be fired on those carrier signals. In our case, they are at 20ms, or a sample rate of 50Hz.

Even in Vlad's scope readouts you can see the carrier signal. In his pics the scope is zoomed way in so you can see the 50Hz sample rate more clearly. Each impulse lasts only 20ms. I have stolen Phil's (shh! Don't tell!) for reference, because it shows the entire firing cycle...

SX350J - Normal - 50J_zpsdum367yo.jpg


If you look at the beginning of the firing cycle you can see where it is firing one impulse for every sample, and changing the amplitude of every impulse as it ramps up to the joules setting. Once the liquid starts to dry it no longer has to fire to maintain temp, so it only fires as necessary, and only as part of the carrier signal (You can see that in Vlad's pics better).

Pulse-Amplitude-Modulation.jpg


If it were in Pulse Frequency Modulation, as suggested, that would imply that the frequency is being shifted to achieve the desired wave form. A close inspection of the signal reveals that the frequency never shift from the 50Hz carrier signal, only the amplitude of the impulses. The amplitude of the carrier signal when no impulse is required is extremely low, but ever present.

Hah, sorry if that's way too techno geek. I'm just not seeing PWM, or PFM. Not in their traditional sense. I do see textbook PAM though.
I see it as a variation of both. At first it seems to be using amplitude to achieve the TC and using it to achieve the mode such as soft, powerful, and powerful +, and then the frequency is very rapid until it goes dry. It then spaces it out by lessening the frequency at a locked in rate since there is no ejuice to cool the coil. At least that is the way I am seeing it but I could be misguided.
 

dam718

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Tired, not really wanting to think right now but ignoring the first two seconds that were in soft, standard, powerfull or powerfull+ mode where do you see the signal amplitude change?

The fact that the amplitude changes anywhere during the firing cycle is enough to prove that this is not using PWM or PFM. Both of those use very different wave forms, and both used fixed amplitude signals.

Every impulse is a fixed width, which indicates that the width is not being modulated. And every impulse is at a fixed frequency, which indicates that the frequency is not being modulated.

The very low carrier signal between each impulse once temp limiting kicks in is a low amplitude signal. To ignore the first 2 seconds I don't think is wise. Unless there is reason to believe that for the first two seconds it uses a completely different signal generator.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

dam718

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I see it as a variation of both. At first it seems to be using amplitude to achieve the TC and using it to achieve the mode such as soft, powerful, and powerful +, and then the frequency is very rapid until it goes dry. It then spaces it out by lessening the frequency at a locked in rate since there is no ejuice to cool the coil. At least that is the way I am seeing it but I could be misguided.

I'm on tapatalk on my phone right now, so it's hard to go find and link pictures. If you do an image search for PFM, it looks much different than what we're seeing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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