That darn burning taste

[leaford]

Guys, the thing to remember about patents is, they don't have to work, and they don't have to ever be actually built. They just have to be an original idea sketched out in enough detail to describe the idea and it's implementation. Most patents are junk which doesn't actually work, but it secures the IDEA.

Also, I've seen several sites that claim to have patents. There are probably dozens of different patents involved here. Some of them maybe for something as simple as adding one more airhole to the existing design.

[TropicalBob]

That was a terrific explanation of the mechanics of e-smoking, MNZ. I enjoyed reading it -- and it should be a newbie stickie.

I, of course, agree most with your statement on the price of these! I've been furious from my introduction to e-smoking in January about the cost of our "toys" - and that's what they are, no more sophisticated than a cheap Chinese toy. The Ruyan pricing, particularly, is insane. I expect cost to have a relationship to expense to make and value received. That's not true of $45 disposable e-cigars. Or KISSBoxes, it seems.

Everything I've learned since I began e-smoking points to disposable units. And my hope now is that GreenCig doesn't go insane with $200 "starter kits". What should a battery cost? $10? $20? What about a dinky atomizer? $10? How about a cartridge attached to that atomizer so the thing lasts ONE WEEK? $5. So I should be able to buy an e-cig that is used one week, then replaced, for $25 or less (I'll recharge the battery, as I do my cell phone). Why, then, would the entry price be $100 or more? That's insane!

Arrrrgh. Of course, the "law" might catch up to these before they get out of their Yves ST. Laurent diapers. Can you say, "Bad baby!"

[leaford]

That's the thing, Bob. It'll never last a whole week unless it's Vegas e-cigar sized. The liquid only lasts so long, and you can only fit so much in a cartridge. I could deal with disposable atomizers if they were still refillable. But one atomizer per mini-sized cartridge is a stupid waste.

[MNZ]

Lets talk a little bit more about the inhalation process and what's going on inside a device when you inhale. For this lets consider a pen stlye as that's the device we are probably most familiar with.

The pen style draws in air from two locations, right at the end of the battery and also through the collar where the battery screws into the atomizer section.

The bulk of the air is drawn in through the collar area with only a small flow coming into the device from the end of the battery. The small air flow in from the battery end is used primarily to activate the air flow sensor and therefore the battery power to the heater coil and the timer circuit and LED.

Now lets consider this in some more detail.

When you inhale the bulk of the air arrives at the atomizer from the collar input. This appears to perform two distinct functions.

1. the indrawn air passes through the metal wool basket that surrounds the atomizer capsule. As the air passes through and out of the wool basket it carries with it tiny droplets of the juice that has soaked into the metal wool, into the heating chamber where the droplets are, by rapid high temperature heating, converted into the mist that we see and inhale.

2. When we inhale the resistance we feel to the draw is reducing the internal air pressure, this "pulls" the juice contained in the cartridge downwards towards the open end of the cartridge and onto the metal wool bridge thereby increasing the amount available by capillary action to be drawn into the metal wool basket from the bridge.

There may well be some atomization occuring with any juice that is present in the fibres we see in the centre core of the heating coil. It is however my belief that the bulk of the mist is created by the tiny droplets drawn from the metal wool basket by the relatively high velocity air flow we create when we inhale. I believe the primary functions of the fibres in the centre of the coil are to, help the coil retain it's shape as it rapidly heats and cools, therefore expanding and contracting. Also it may act as a thermal coupling and assists in conducting heat away more smoothly by retaining some heat so the coil cools slowly instead of rapidly. This is borne out by reports of rapid failures if the fibres are removed or once the burnt taste has stopped, therefore all the fibres have been reduced to a molten mess / ashes. In fact the very action of melting or burning these fibres will reduce the coil life by creating hot and cold spots on the metal of the coil so the heating and cooling processes are no longer even. This will setup stress fatigue in the metal and hasten it's breakage.

What I think is needed is a rethink on the design of the heater coil, that's why I suggested a spiral or circular design. Similar if you will, to the filament in a light bulb, and yes the light bulb has been changed !

Of course a light bulb works in a slightly different manner in that the delicate filament is active (hot) for a longer continuous time and is also working in an inert gas to protect it from rapid oxidation, burn out. The difficulty will be in creating suitable supports for the coil if the fibre interior is removed, which is what I'd like to see happen as I feel that is the weak link in the chain.

Sure batteries die, what can you expect from something that costs cents. The electronics fail, inherent problem with all micro-electronics, plus they are working in a potentially wet environment. But the primary failures seem to be the atomizers and without confirming research I'd suspect if the failed units were examined the majority of failures would be in the heating coil itself. And further more I'd suggest that the core fibres were either gone or severely damaged.

Another few cents worth from me.

Next time I think I might talk a bit about cartridge design and how they function and also give my thoughts on dripping, dry smoking and topping off of cartridges.

If anyone has anything they'd like me to discuss please feel free to offer it up ... instead of filling up this thread with that sort of stuff pm me with your suggestions. lets try and keep this thread going with good discussion and commentary.

[TropicalBob]

Again, nice post. Don't feel the need to pull back. This forum has room for "I'm new. What e-cig should I buy?" and threads like this one. Keep sharing your knowledge, Michael.

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

The ultrasonic vaporiser that keeps being mentioned - did that ever get off the patent sheet and into existence (any application, even a tabletop model)?

[MNZ]

Not that I'm aware of emp, and I've been hunting around for it believe me.

I think two things might have scotched it, the cost of actually making the thing, it is a complicated beast, and also the final weight of the device, that's a sizable load of metal contraption and electronics to cart around, I'd estimate it would be in the region of 4-5 times the weight of current designs, perhaps more.

Janty call their latest bits of kit, kissboxes as in Keep It Simple Stupid, LCD indicators, pressure release valves, ultrasonic atomizer heads, extensive electronic control systems etc don't really fall into the K.I.S.S. design principal.

If it ever got built as designed we could end up sucking on something the size of a toilet roll, connected to an over the shoulder power supply that's needed to power up all the flashing lights and computer control systems !

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Yeah I know it. I also know that I'd wheel the damn thing around in a golf cart if it delivered the hit.

We are fools, ya know?

[jdrancor]

I see what you're saying about the air pulling a mist from the steel wool, which is then turned to vapor by the coil.

Here's what I tested. I pulled the steel wool bridge out of an old, burnt tasting but still functioning atomizer. I placed one drop of liquid directly on the coil/fibre. This yeilded two big healthy puffs of vapor, and then nothing at all. THEN, I placed some of the steel wool in the chamber and put one drop on the coil/fibre to wet it, and one drop on the steel wool. This yeilded about 24 good puffs, which then began to taper gradually. Also, there was the familiar gurgling sound. Oddly enough, the burnt taste has vanished - was it contained in the wire bridge? This doesn't seem possible. Anyhow, no burnt taste

SO. It appears, as MNZ says, that the liquid is not going straight from liquid to vapor, but from liquid to mist to vapor. Thus, the steel wool is a neccesary part of the design, creating a medium through which air can travel rapidly through tiny, liquid filled holes creating the mist prior to vaporization. SO, the wick idea would not be the best solution.

Additionally, I noted, at the center of the steel wool bridge, there is a solid bit of bent metal to retain the shape of the steel wool bridge, so that the cartridge, when pushed against it will not deform it. If this metal were eliminated, then there would be greater airflow through the wool, creating more mist, and more vapor.

So, maybe we start simply by replacing the fiber at the center of the coil with ceramic or glass or another non-conductive material? Micro perforations in it, if possible, would increase airflow. Then, changing the coil shape to spiral or horseshoe would increase the heated surface area. This would also drain battery life though, so maybe not. Removing the wide metal bar at the center of the bridge would increase airflow through the tiny holes too. for stiffness, perhaps replace with a wire rather than a bar. As far as getting the liquid to the wire mesh, this might be the problem to solve. I think the airflow could be a boon here.. or capillary action through a wick.. I don't have an answer to this at the moment.

But anyhow, replacing the fiber with glass or ceramic would probably take care of at least some of the burnt taste.

[RatInDaHat]

The only ultra sonic device similar, that i've seen, has been the portable ultra-sonic nebulizers. They are used for medication and not available without a prescription.

-Dusty-