That darn burning taste

[jdrancor]

So we've been talking about the burning taste for awhile.

I'm currently smoking a rn4081 or Super Cigarette, but this burning taste has eventually led me to ditch every atomizer, whether I use it exclusively with a cartridge or I exclusively drip. I've got 6 atomizers, 2 pen-style and 4 rn4081's that produce smoke, but along with it, they produce a NASTY burning taste. My short term solution is to buy a bunch of rn4081 atomizers (if you look around, you can get them for $7 a pop) and just replace them when they start tasting burnt. No amount of cleaning will get rid of the nasty burnt taste.

SO then. Why the burnt taste? As Jarvis has explained and diagrammed for us here in this post, there is a wick inside the filament that soaks up the liquid, which is then heated to create the vapor.

Here's a crude diagram:



This wick starts to burn after awhile, presumably because it dries out. And, from my experience, it dries out fairly easily. No amount of coddling seems to save it from drying out and tasting terrible in a week or two.

Additionally, there is the problem of the e-liquid itself leaving a residue behind. Perhaps this is also accountable for the taste: the liquid gets left behind, heats, burns, eventually it is a solid that is burning and that also could create a nasty taste. Here is a demonstration of the solids left behind (translated from Dutch)

So, what are the solutions? Well, I think, because of the solids left behind, that it is necessary to have a disposable atomizer. If there were no solids, or a dependable way of removing solids, we could have a permanent atomizer, but as there is no liquid that doesn't leave one solid or another behind, then we are best served going with a disposable atomizer.

There are two disposable atomizers on the market today. The LoongTotem and the GreenCig. I have read no reviews of the GreenCig, but the LoongTotem reviews have been negative, across the board. It has some sort of paper in the cart that burns and creates a bad taste. (I searched for the image, but couldn't find it. Can somebody help me out here?) So, there are no good disposables out right now.

Here's what I'm coming to. How about a longer thicker wick that goes into a cartridge that is FULL of nicotine liquid. This instead of the absorbent wool that is currently used to suspend the liquid. The cart would last longer, and the wick would remain wet constantly. By the time the solids from the liquid start to accumulate on the filament, the cart would be empty, and we could put in a fresh one. Here's another crude illustration:



Anyhow. It's a thought. Aside from convenience, I think that, because of the inevitable solid accumulation on the atomizer, that a disposable cart will be the only way to go.

[CaSHMeRe]

Drawings are great ... LOL ... some massive paint skills going on there.

Good idea though. So many good ideas, just no funds behind them to back them up and get them produced. hmmm....

[RatInDaHat]

man either you have a tablet, or your mouse skills are better than mine.

[TropicalBob]

Looks ingenious to me. You eliminate the "roll cage" over the heater element, assure a more consistent flow of fluid, and -- important to me -- get rid of the core material (polyester in some cases) that ends up as stray fibers in your atomizer or, worse, burned areas in your cartridge. Not sure why someone hasn't tried your idea. And it shouldn't be more expensive than the present setup, unlike making an ultrasonic mister, for instance.

Zippo lighter = inspiration.

[RatInDaHat]

hell, if someone makes a good ultrasonic one, i'd pay the price.

With that being said, i would have no problem with disposable ones either.

[jarvis]

Yes I like these ideas. Here's a sloppy manip of an earlier cross section I posted of a possible solution to the burning fiber. Incorporate a new coil/fiber, the steel wool bridge, and a bit of the ceramic into the cartridges. Would save a bit more material than the whole atomizer being thrown out.

[MNZ]

Let's consider for a moment what the atomiser does and the way it does it.

The device consists of a pot made of metal, ceramic, or a combination of those materials. In the centre of the pot is a heating coil with a material core centre. Surrounding the pot is a basket of steel wool. Rising above the pot is a bridge made of steel wool.

So that is the basic mechanical design, next what happens when we "smoke" it.

Before I talk about how the device works it's a good idea to talk a bit about what each of the core components function is.

Steel wool bridge.
The bridge directly contacts the wool in the cartridge and by capillary action wicks the juice into the wool basket that surrounds the core pot.

Steel wool pot
This performs two functions,
i) it acts as the storage reservoir holding an amount of juice for use
ii) it performs the first stage of the atomisation process, more details below.

Heating coil
When heated to the correct temperature the coil creates mist from the droplets of PG and nicotine.

Heating coil wick
The wick seems to perform two actions,
i) it absorbs an amount of juice to provide it with direct contact to the heater coil
ii) providing thermal shock protection and heat caused deformation protection to the coil as it rapidly heats and cools.

Now we understand what each of the parts is doing, lets describe what happens

When we inhale on the device, the airflow is detected and the electronics kick in and connect the power from the battery to the heater coil and the timer circuit, after there has a continuous air flow of 3-5 seconds the timer circuit cuts the power to the heater coil.

When we inhale the liquid held in the wool basket is drawn into the central core of the atomiser in fine droplets, it's these fine droplets as well as the small amount of liquid held in suspension in the heater coil wick core that is turned into the vapour we inhale into our lungs.

The amount of mist produced is reliant on a number of factors
a. the amount of juice held in the basket
b. the amount of fine droplets created by inhalation
c. the surface area of the heater coil
d. the internal airflow design funnelling the droplets correctly onto the heater coil

From this it would seem logical to assume that provided sufficient juice is available in the wool basket that a smaller sized atomiser will produce greater smoke volumes than a larger device. Think of water flowing through a pipe, a large pipe gives a slower flow, a small pipe gives a faster flow. This is rather borne out by the reviews we have all seen of cigar sized unit and the much smaller DSE901 based devices, the smaller DSE901 wins hands down. This is purely due to the volume of air being drawn through a smaller surface area of mesh at higher velocity than the larger device and being able to draw more fine droplets onto the heating coil. The viscosity of the juice is an important consideration here, too thick and it wont form the initial fine droplets as it is sucked from the wool basket, too thin and it will not be held in the wool basket, but instead flow through it.

I'm only assuming the wick in the centre of the heating coil performs the actions I've attributed to it, it would seem to be the most reasonable suggestions for it's existence.

Is this what we can taste as a burnt taste in some atomisers ?
Yes I believe it is one of the providers of the burnt taste and quite probably the largest contributor. I think there are two other contributors.
The first is stray fibres from the cartridge coming into contact with the heater coil, note that it will need to be in contact with the coil directly not merely the wool bridge wick, although this will become heated it's large surface area will rapidly dissipate the heat away.

The second is evaporated juice burning off the surfaces of the atomiser. Think of the oven in your stove at home, cooking in the oven causes the walls of the oven to become dirty, this is from spatter or the condensing of vapours from the cooking. If the dirt is allowed to build up, eventually it begins to burn each time we use the oven, this is usually obvious by the amount of smoke that is produced, clean the oven and the smoke goes away. On a much smaller scale the same thing is happening inside our atomisers. It may also be happening on the wick in the centre of the coil, that would account of the blackened lumps we have seen in pictures. So regular cleaning to dissolve and remove crystallised or dried up juice residue is vital.

Would a different heater coil design help ?
Perhaps.
The coil of relatively fine wire is a highly effective method of producing the highest surface area of a material given a specific volume of material available. I do feel the linear shape of the coil is not the best configuration and that a circular or preferably a spiral shape may prove to be a better design to use.

I have also given some considerable thought to different shapes and materials, for example, a ceramic heater platform in a variety of different shapes, cubic, thin square, orb, ring, multi-faceted, etc but I continue to come back to the coil of wire as the most reasonably efficient method.

That will do for my ramblings so far, I hope this gives you something to think about and consider and offers up a view of what's going on inside your little device.

BTW, how the hell they can charge what they do for them is beyond me, they is nothing complex about the design, there are no exotic materials in the build, even the finish on them is really nothing out of the ordinary ... If the build cost including packaging in China was much more than US$1.00 I'd be surprised.

[jdrancor]

I like Jarvis's idea. I don't really see the necessity of having the steel wool bridge, however. I've been straight dripping, and I'm not trying for any degree of accuracy. So, plenty of my drips get into the ceramic pot, and directly on the coil itself, saturating the wick. I've found that when I put too much juice in, it doesn't smoke. So then I tip the cig upwards to let the juice run away from the coil, draw, and get smoke. So, I'm imagining that it would function fine if I dripped without the bridge - the only thing here is that the bridge absorbs a little liquid and keeps me from having to drip so often.

So I'm proposing that the primary function of the bridge is not to draw liquid but to keep the cartridge wool away from direct contact with the coil. Only this and nothing (not much) more. It's secondary function is just as MNZ says - it serves as a conveyance for the liquid from the cartridge down to the level of the filament. In fact, I just confirmed this - I pulled a bridge out of one of my nasty tasting atomizers, and it still produces smoke when I drip on it (still tastes nasty.) All that's missing is a reliable conveyance.

Anyhow, here's an iteration on MNZ's idea, sans wire bridge and with a redesigned battery that works more like an audio jack or a pen cap. My concern with this is that the liquid would wick too fast and be used up too quickly, but this could be remedied with the wick material, I suppose. Also, I like MNZ's idea of a spiral-shaped coil, rather than the current linear design. AND, I feel like the wick and coil would see the most action closest to the liquid reservoir, and I don't have an answer for this at the moment.

[jarvis]

Looks good jdrancor, with your wick design you could get rid of the steel wool bridge altogether, and perhaps even the ceramic reservoir part.

BTW, how the hell they can charge what they do for them is beyond me, they is nothing complex about the design, there are no exotic materials in the build, even the finish on them is really nothing out of the ordinary ... If the build cost including packaging in China was much more than US$1.00 I'd be surprised.

I've been wondering the same thing. I guess if they had stuck to the original patent design it could've been the advanced electrical device that they still claim it to be. for example:

(high frequency generator arranged on a control circuit board and used for generating a high frequency signal, nicotine solution storage container for storing nicotine solution, a control circuit further comprising a plurality of inputs and outputs arranged on the control circuit board and used for controlling the operation of the non-smokable electronic spray cigarette, an airflow sensor, a body sensitive sensor, an atomizer for atomizing the nicotine solution, a high temperature vaporization nozzle, wherein the vaporization nozzle is arranged in an air suction end of the shell and is coupled to the nicotine solution storage container, the nicotine storage container further comprising a liquid injection valve wherein the liquid injection valve is coupled to an electronic pump or a valve connected with a metering cavity, the atomizer is coupled to the high frequency generator, the plurality of outputs of the control circuit are coupled to the high frequency generator, an electric heater, and the electronic pump or valve respectively, the body sensitive sensor and the airflow sensor are coupled to inputs of the control circuit.)

But the companies cranking these things out have misleadingly retained some of the terms to make the devices sound expensive, and some people charge 100 bucks for something that is about as primitive as electrical devices get. I think people are wising up though, and I am seeing less and less websites attempting to resell these 30 dollar e-cigs for 70-90 dollars.

p.s. Are there any models that actually have the high frequency generators and vaporization nozzle/pump setup? I thought maybe the original ruyan and that's why it cost 180 bucks, but it's probably just like the low tech ones.

[MNZ]

jarvis,

Yes I'm afraid the ruyan products are the same as everyone else's all your paying for there is the name.

And I couldn't agree with you more ... If we were buying the device described in the original patent documents we certainly wouldn't be having this conversation now. The described beast is about as far removed from what's available as a Formula One car is to a lawn mower.

I think it's all down to price, the whizzo beast that is in the patent would be hugely more expensive to manufacture and would exponentially raise the price.
Would I buy one if it was ... say $500-$1000, I'm not sure.