Exploding mods: the feedback thread

[rolygate]

Let's please discuss the mod failure incidents and ECF's position on it, here in this thread.

You are welcome to post any viewpoint you like, but please try to take a calm and reasoned approach. There are many different camps on this and the single common factor is that they all disagree strenuously. Let's try and give the Mods a night off for a change...

OK you've seen my announcement post on this topic - here's the background, from my point of view.

The main reason we had to take some sort of action on this is quite simple: legal liability. The second is a duty to members.

Legal liability
I've been told that one or two of these incidents might result in a very large damages case; and that if it doesn't happen this time round, one day it will. Of course, I'm not an attorney, so I just listen to what I'm told. There is a possibility that due to some combination of circumstances, ECF might be seen as jointly liable by somebody somewhere.

This may be something of a leap, but unless two or three attorneys come to me and say that it is a FACT that THERE IS NO WAY that ECF can ever be held liable in any way, then we should consider the worst case scenario. That is simple prudence.

Because, if we accept a supplier (and perhaps especially a modder) as a Registered Supplier, and if we then promote them and term them an Approved Supplier, and if we afford them additional extended facilities here such as allowing them to maintain a forum here and sell their products, and if we allow them to advertise those products widely here, and if we are seen to fully approve those products - then just possibly there might be seen to be some sort of commercial connection between the two of us.

If you are an attorney and can state with absolute certainty that ECF can never be seen as a commercial partner with that modder or supplier, that's good. We welcome your input. If however you are not legally qualified, then let's face it - your opinion on this particular aspect of the issue is not of outstanding merit. It's always worth hearing but has no basis in fact.

Our duty to members
I have heard it said that ECF is a discussion forum and nothing more, and should withdraw from any form of advice giving. This is utter tosh. ECF is (a) a giant online community, (b) the largest source of ecigarette information and advice in the world, and (c) the global voice of e-smoking.

The single largest duty we probably have is to make information and advice available to members and visitors. It's up to them whether they want to follow it or not, we simply provide the information to make an informed choice.

What the modders say
What the modders say is quite interesting - the only common factor is that they all disagree with each other, shall we say 'strenuously'. I'd be interested to see two modders with the same opinion on any of these various issues - that would actually be some sort of progress.

The fact is that we don't know for sure what causes these fires and explosions - but every modder tells a different story. That should point out to you the real problem: they can't agree, they can't work together and they can't decide what is right or wrong.

This why we have been drawn into it.

What causes fires or explosions
You want to know what the cause is or the causes are? So would I. But if I asked three modders, I would get three different answers. Every modder's product is perfect, and better than the opposition's, and has no faults.

For sure.

Here's an example: one repected modder says that atomizers normally fail to open circuit, and therefore are unlikely to be the cause of incidents. Another says atties sometimes fail to a short-circuit in his experience. Another says that over-volting an atomizer by 75% is a bad idea (but they are over-volted by over 100% in some situations). So the modders don't agree on this issue - which is just one of many.

Are mods dangerous?
Yes and no. If built correctly and used correctly, no. But there are some big areas for user error: storing one with no kill switch in your purse or pocket; fitting unprotected batteries; using a poor-quality charger maybe. And if you combine this with a mod that wasn't built to a basic safety standard, then you are potentially in the danger area.

Is it OK to rely on safe user practice?
Well, now we are definitely into big debate territory. A gun is safe but as soon as you give it to a user, it's not, because of the massive potential for misuse.

With a mod, you can shout all you like about how they should be transported with the atomizer off or the batteries out, but that won't make people do it. I guess two out of three or maybe even more will occasionally put that mod in their pocket or purse with the attie on and the batts in. It's just the way it is.

You can scream at them about how they should buy the best batteries they can get - but some won't. They'll get the cheapest deal they can, or get fooled by the advertising and buy rubbish.

There is only one safe way to sell a product with inherent safety issues - make it as foolproof as possible, because people are fallible.

How far you want to go down that track is up to you. As far as ECF is concerned - only just as far as will remove our liability and that satisfies our duty to inform. It's not our job to tell people what to do but if we are forced to, we have to.

Cost of safety features
Firstly, the cost of safety features is not an issue because without them the product is not merchantable.

Secondly, the cost is very low in any case:

- a kill switch: a few bucks plus time to install.
- correctly-rated on/off switch: if the mod doesn't have this, surely it should not be sold at all?
- vent holes: drilling a couple of 2mm holes is not costly.
- protected batteries: mods should either be sold with proper batteries or empty. It's a few bucks more, but are you really saying that it's OK to sell the product with cheap, unprotected batteries?

Expensive electronics
There aren't any. They are all in the batteries, which is the whole point. Proper batteries contain an electronics package that controls various aspects of performance and service - which is why only protected batteries are used.

Are mods with safety features completely safe?
No, not really. It's more safe - like a car with seatbelts and airbags. Safety features can't protect you against deliberate misuse or unusual events.

A layered safety policy is much better than nothing, though. If layer 1 fails, maybe layer 2 will save the day.

What next?
Contrary to popular opinion, ECF doesn't want to do anything. We certainly don't want to be in the position of either telling people what they can or can't use, or even of telling suppliers what they can or can't advertise here. We just don't want that.

What we need to do is make sure we don't get sued, and that people can make an informed choice on what to buy. Simple as that.

How we get to there is the question. It could simply be that we need to publish what we consider - at this moment in time - to be a reasonable safety spec; and to place warnings here and there to advise people what to look out for.

It that's all it needs then that's exactly what we'll do. Going any further than that will be a painful and difficult move. The debate is on now, to see what people think and where they stand on this. Let's see what turns up.



.

[hifistud]

I would suggest that folks look at what steps laptop, mobile phone and similar device manufacturers take to safeguard their consumers from what can be a difficult technology:

Inside a Lithium-ion Battery Pack and Cell

Lithium-ion battery packs come in all shapes and sizes, but they all look about the same on the inside. If you were to take apart a laptop battery pack (something that we DO NOT recommend because of the possibility of shorting out a battery and starting a fire) you would find the following:


Photo courtesy ZD Net UK
The lithium-ion cells can be either cylindrical batteries that look almost identical to AA cells, or they can be prismatic, which means they are square or rectangular
The computer, which comprises:

One or more temperature sensors to monitor the battery temperature
A voltage converter and regulator circuit to maintain safe levels of voltage and current
A shielded notebook connector that lets power and information flow in and out of the battery pack
A voltage tap, which monitors the energy capacity of individual cells in the battery pack
A battery charge state monitor, which is a small computer that handles the whole charging process to make sure the batteries charge as quickly and fully as possible.
If the battery pack gets too hot during charging or use, the computer will shut down the flow of power to try to cool things down. If you leave your laptop in an extremely hot car and try to use the laptop, this computer may prevent you from powering up until things cool off. If the cells ever become completely discharged, the battery pack will shut down because the cells are ruined. It may also keep track of the number of charge/discharge cycles and send out information so the laptop's battery meter can tell you how much charge is left in the battery.

It's a pretty sophisticated little computer, and it draws power from the batteries. This power draw is one reason why lithium-ion batteries lose 5 percent of their power every month when sitting idle.

Lithium-ion Cells
As with most batteries you have an outer case made of metal. The use of metal is particularly important here because the battery is pressurized. This metal case has some kind of pressure-sensitive vent hole. If the battery ever gets so hot that it risks exploding from over-pressure, this vent will release the extra pressure. The battery will probably be useless afterwards, so this is something to avoid. The vent is strictly there as a safety measure. So is the Positive Temperature Coefficient (PTC) switch, a device that is supposed to keep the battery from overheating.


This metal case holds a long spiral comprising three thin sheets pressed together:

A Positive electrode
A Negative electrode
A separator
Inside the case these sheets are submerged in an organic solvent that acts as the electrolyte. Ether is one common solvent.
The separator is a very thin sheet of microperforated plastic. As the name implies, it separates the positive and negative electrodes while allowing ions to pass through.

The positive electrode is made of Lithium cobalt oxide, or LiCoO2. The negative electrode is made of carbon. When the battery charges, ions of lithium move through the electrolyte from the positive electrode to the negative electrode and attach to the carbon. During discharge, the lithium ions move back to the LiCoO2 from the carbon.



The movement of these lithium ions happens at a fairly high voltage, so each cell produces 3.7 volts. This is much higher than the 1.5 volts typical of a normal AA alkaline cell that you buy at the supermarket and helps make lithium-ion batteries more compact in small devices like cell phones. See How Batteries Work for details on different battery chemistries.

We'll look at how to prolong the life of a lithium-ion battery and explore why they can explode next.

Lithium-ion Battery Life and Death

Lithium-ion battery packs are expensive, so if you want to make yours to last longer, here are some things to keep in mind:
Lithium ion chemistry prefers partial discharge to deep discharge, so it's best to avoid taking the battery all the way down to zero. Since lithium-ion chemistry does not have a "memory", you do not harm the battery pack with a partial discharge. If the voltage of a lithium-ion cell drops below a certain level, it's ruined.
Lithium-ion batteries age. They only last two to three years, even if they are sitting on a shelf unused. So do not "avoid using" the battery with the thought that the battery pack will last five years. It won't. Also, if you are buying a new battery pack, you want to make sure it really is new. If it has been sitting on a shelf in the store for a year, it won't last very long. Manufacturing dates are important.
Avoid heat, which degrades the batteries.
Exploding Batteries
Now that we know how to keep lithium-ion batteries working longer, let's look at why they can explode.


Several news reports in the past six months describe laptops with lithium-ion batteries that caught on fire.
If the battery gets hot enough to ignite the electrolyte, you are going to get a fire. There are video clips and photos on the Web that show just how serious these fires can be. The CBC article,"Summer of the Exploding Laptop," rounds up several of these incidents.

When a fire like this happens, it is usually caused by an internal short in the battery. Recall from the previous section that lithium-ion cells contain a separator sheet that keeps the positive and negative electrodes apart. If that sheet gets punctured and the electrodes touch, the battery heats up very quickly. You may have experienced the kind of heat a battery can produce if you have ever put a normal 9-volt battery in your pocket. It a coin shorts across the two terminals, the battery gets quite hot.

In a separator failure, that same kind of short happens inside the lithium-ion battery. Since lithium-ion batteries are so energetic, they get very hot. The heat causes the battery to vent the organic solvent used as an electrolyte, and the heat (or a nearby spark) can light it. Once that happens inside one of the cells, the heat of the fire cascades to the other cells and the whole pack goes up in flames.

The full article is at Howstuffworks "How Lithium-ion Batteries Work"

As e-cigs and mods are all about heat generation, and since heat is not a battery's friend, it would make sense to take all reasonable steps to ensure consumer safety. Not having a kill switch is but one issue - it seems a relatively simple step to take to help prevent "accidental pressure" on an activation switch causing atomiser heat-up and small burns - or perhaps thermal runaway. I am not a lawyer, but I dare say that one would take the view that the lack of a kill switch would be a contributory factor in a burn case, and would happily take the case on.

One could also argue that any "modder" selling multi-cell units must take the same precautions as laptop manufacturers and so on - and that implies that a purely mechanical device might not pass safety tests. You might also argue that devices ought to be designed such that only a properly constructed multi-cell pack (not user fashionable) can power them.

At the end of the day, I suspect that the lawyers and government safety bodies will have the final say. Somebody will be hurt and will press suit, and at that point, the brown sticky stuff will hit the fan at a great rate on knotts.

And of course, that's exactly what we need right now.[/sarcasm]

[Nuck]

How about a factual information based sticky listing good practices and the risks involved with a disclaimer. No liability at that point for the forum.

There is a short list of good practices that will make mods a hell of a lot safer for the less experienced vapers and keeping those posted should help considerably.

Don't bloat the sticky with all sorts of non-issues like HV atties, etc. If the power source is safe then it really doesn't matter what happens outside of it. Focus on the source of the problems and the rest becomes moot.

[Toby]

Have you got a general (e-cig) battery safety page, Roly?

If you have where is it? I need it to be very visible for everyone.

And if not, why not?

Here's a few basics I posted on another forum yesterday....

NOTE: Battery Safety

Use special caution when working with Li-ion cells, they are very sensitive to charging characteristics and may explode or burn if mishandled.

Make sure the user has enough knowledge of Li-ion rechargeable batteries in charging, discharging and assembly before use.

Always charge in/on a fire-proof surface.

Never leave charging batteries unattended.

Never continue to use an e-cigarette type device if you can feel the battery get hot. If your battery gets hot to the touch, or if it begins smelling: DO NOT USE IT ANYMORE. Let it cool down (1 hour) in a safe environment (outside preferably), and then dispose of correctly.

If your e-cigarette or device begins activating itself, immediately remove your atomiser and disconnect the battery. Do NOT trust the battery, nor the atomiser anymore from this point on. This means never leave either of the components connected in your pocket, in your nightstand, or out of visibility where you can not immediately separate the two components.

Read the information found at: Battery University before purchasing. It is important to carry batteries properly, charge properly, and dispose of properly.

[keyzygirl]

Couldnt you have a warning on the top of the page like""before you purchase a mod''That you do not recomend them and would not be liable for damages caused by them?There must be a lawyer that could figure out some sort of disclaimer or something.

[SudokuGal]

snipped stuff
The main reason we had to take some sort of action on this is quite simple: legal liability. The second is a duty to members.

Legal liability
I've been told that one or two of these incidents might result in a very large damages case; and that if it doesn't happen this time round, one day it will. Of course, I'm not an attorney, so I just listen to what I'm told. There is a possibility that due to some combination of circumstances, ECF might be seen as jointly liable by somebody somewhere.

This may be something of a leap, but unless two or three attorneys come to me and say that it is a FACT that THERE IS NO WAY that ECF can ever be held liable in any way, then we should consider the worst case scenario. That is simple prudence.

Let's hope that an attorney does chime in...and soon because at this point all of this is pure speculation, is it not?

Because, if we accept a supplier (and perhaps especially a modder) as a Registered Supplier, and if we then promote them and term them an Approved Supplier, and if we afford them additional extended facilities here such as allowing them to maintain a forum here and sell their products, and if we allow them to advertise those products widely here, and if we are seen to fully approve those products - then just possibly there might be seen to be some sort of commercial connection between the two of us.

Here are a lot of IFs. Does ECF currently "term them an Approved Supplier?" It almost seems like this is 'opening of a can of worms' could have been avoided with a legal consultation.

If you are an attorney and can state with absolute certainty that ECF can never be seen as a commercial partner with that modder or supplier, that's good. We welcome your input. If however you are not legally qualified, then let's face it - your opinion on this particular aspect of the issue is not of outstanding merit. It's always worth hearing but has no basis in fact.

Our duty to members
I have heard it said that ECF is a discussion forum and nothing more, and should withdraw from any form of advice giving. This is utter tosh. ECF is (a) a giant online community, (b) the largest source of ecigarette information and advice in the world, and (c) the global voice of e-smoking.

No one has said not to give advice; in fact it has been mentioned several times that giving warnings is quite acceptable...what people are saying is not to make ECF a self-appointed regulatory authority BEFORE the legalities you mentioned are known facts. This seems to be a slippery slope.

snipped stuff


There is only one safe way to sell a product with inherent safety issues - make it as foolproof as possible, because people are fallible.

I don't know if you had a chance to read the posts in the other threads, but there are reports of problems with commercial products. How, then, if ECF started to ban mods advertisment, would you address problems with commercial products that have problems?

snipped stuff


What next?
Contrary to popular opinion, ECF doesn't want to do anything. We certainly don't want to be in the position of either telling people what they can or can't use, or even of telling suppliers what they can or can't advertise here. We just don't want that.

What we need to do is make sure we don't get sued, and that people can make an informed choice on what to buy. Simple as that.

How we get to there is the question. It could simply be that we need to publish what we consider - at this moment in time - to be a reasonable safety spec; and to place warnings here and there to advise people what to look out for.

This seems to be the most logical approach until you've heard from an attorney. That's how the nicotine is handled. (Early in my career as a technical writer, I had a software engineer tell me that I couldn't write a manual that would accommodate the stupid. Although fast food restuarants have tried with "CAUTION: Coffee is hot!")

It that's all it needs then that's exactly what we'll do. Going any further than that will be a painful and difficult move. The debate is on now, to see what people think and where they stand on this. Let's see what turns up.

Based on your previous statements, it doesn't seem like debate is likely to turn up anything to resolve this issue. Only a legal consultation will do that.

.

I would like to add that I don't ANYONE is against the e-cig world evolving to having safety standards. ECF could go a long way in helping to promote that and make some board a legitimate authority. I'm sorry, but I am one that believes that ECF is plain and simple a discussion forum. It may be the biggest forum to date; however, that doesn't give it license to be a regulator.

[jebey29]

How about im an adult and am quite capable of deciding for myself what the risks are.

ECF's Tag line is "THE PLACE ON THE WEB TO DISCUSS ALL THINGS E-CIGARETTE." This is a forum that should allow the free flow of information both good and bad.

In my opinion the OPS post is suggesting that people are stupid and do stupid things therefore ECF knows better than them so we will just regulate them. This sounds so much like what is happening in our country today.

I say no thanks. Im proud of the fact that all of the manufacturers down to the last one refused to participate.

Why dont we just ban all e-cigs and lets go back to inhaling 2400 known carcinogens and harmful substances into our body.

I joined ECF because of the free flow of information and the availability of reliable information of products/manufacturers. That is what a forum does. It is not a regulatory agency or enforcement arm of anything. If you feel the need to warn consumers about the dangers of Mods then that is exactly what the forum is set up to do. But what you are proposing and trying to establish goes beyond the scope of ECF. If you are changing your mission statement that is your right to do so but all forum members should also be informed of this change so that we can decide for ourselves whether to continue our support of the forum.

[keyzygirl]

I think its more about liability than control.

[ZambucaLu]

At the end of the day, I suspect that the lawyers and government safety bodies will have the final say. Somebody will be hurt and will press suit, and at that point, the brown sticky stuff will hit the fan at a great rate on knotts.

[/sarcasm]

And this is the point. Don't we all know how 'sue happy' people are these days? And does the law care that you were negligent? How about the dumbo who spilled the hot McD coffee on herself then goes on to sue them....and win! Or all those people suing the tobacco companies because they got cancer from smoking? If you think liability is solely limited to the end user, you're nuts!

Sorry, but to use this most recent event as an example....what if this member didn't have glasses on and the hot piece struck his eye....causing blindness or worse yet, loss of the eye? Think it can't happen? And haven't you seen those commercials by attorneys 'Had an accident, call us!'? Any attorney would jump on something like this. All it takes is a serious enough injury....and a party willing to sue...and somebody is going to the cleaners.

And this isn't just about ECF....something like this could have an impact on any ecig forum that promotes sales. And what about the modders themselves? What if this member had lost an eye? Think Jeff wouldn't be paying out the ....? And even if he were to win, the whole legal process and cost would be horrendous. What would he have left afterward? What would ECF (or any of the smaller forums) have left after such a legal battle?

ECF isn't trying to tell anyone what to buy, make or sell. But not only do we have an obligation to keep members informed of possible dangers, but we also have the right to protect ECF as a whole. And other forums, manufacturers and sellers should be looking to cover their butts as well.

And you come in saying 'I'm an adult and I don't want anyone telling me what to do'. Well guess what, when the chit hits the fan, and someone suffers some serious grievous bodily damage due to an ecig explosion, nobody's going to care that you're an adult....all anyone is going to see is big $$$$$$.

I have written to the one attorney I know of on this forum and asked for her input. Maybe she'll comment. Any legal opinion would be better than nothing. So before ya'll start jumping on the 'Don't tell me what to do' bandwagon, perhaps you need to really look at the possibilities and try to come up with some sort of solutions to protect all involved rather than being so concerned about your status as an adult. You say you are for the vaping community, then let's figure it out.

That's all for now.

Lu

[jebey29]

I think its more about liability than control.

I have a business attorney, tax attorney, divorce attorney and many accountants. There is no liability here. $500 and 2 hours with an attorney could easily alleviate these unfounded and baseless fears.

This is a neighborhood discussion board. You do not get sued or held liable for what your neighbors do.

Do you think NBC, CBS, Fox, ABC is worried about liability suits because they let Toyota advertise on their networks? Of course not. The networks do nothing more than provide a platform for Toyota to speak. That is what ECF does.

Or how about your neighborhood ballpark where children play t-ball and soccer. Do you think the ballpark can be held liable for the companies they sold advertising to? This is absurd and for the life of me can't figure out why this has even become an issue.