Practical implications of Whole Tobacco Alkaloids

[Stubby]

or "How to Quit Smoking".

With the idea of WTA rattling around the forum the last few weeks some very good ideas came up that perhaps have gotten buried in that long and fruitful thread. If you haven't read the thread it has gotten very long, but worth the read.

So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

It appears PV's have a failure rate of about 25% according to DVap , and perhaps another 25% that struggle to quit smoking (correct me if this is wrong please). It would be a good guess that for those that are struggling the long time failure rate will be on the high side. It's a good bet that a WTA based liquid would have a much higher success rate, but at the moment there is no WTA extract products on the market (and we don't know if there ever will be).

So what to do until we can get some. Perhaps a more pragmatic approach to quitting smoking using all the reduced harm products as needed would have a much higher success rate. The idea has been bantered about a good deal on the forum but now there is some sound science backing up the idea.

The quadrant idea that DVap came up with would be an excellent starting point.

We can probably agree that nicotine is psychoactive and also variably addictive. We can also agree that tobacco MAOI's are psychoactive and also variably addictive.

The psychoactive character of both nicotine and MAOI's should be, IMO, considered beyond debate. Both do work in the brain to alter perception in one way or another.

It's the variably addictive character that makes things interesting.

Imagine a two-dimensional graph:

The x-axis represents a person's predisposition toward nicotine addiction, exclusive of any other factor. At the far left of the axis is "low predisposition", at the middle is "moderate predisposition", and at the far right is "high disposition".

The y-axis represents a person's predisposition toward tobacco MAIO addiction. At The bottom of the axis is "low predisposition", at the middle is "moderate predisposition", and at the top is "high disposition".

We could then define 4 quadrants, clockwise from the lower left.

Quadrant 1: Low nicotine predisposition, low MAOI presdispostion.
Quadrant 2: Low nicotine predisposition, high MAOI predisposition.
Quadrant 3: High nicotine predisposition, high MAIO predisposition.
Quadrant 4: High nicotine predisposition, low MAOI predisposition.

Accepting that each person smokes more or less for nicotine and more or less for MAOI's, how might individuals in each quadrant stop smoking tobacco in a most appropriate and satisfactory manner?

Individuals in quadrant 1 might be expected to do well vaping a low to moderate strength e-liquid as an alternate to smoking.

Individuals in quadrant 4 might be expected to do well will vaping a higher strength e-liquid as an alternate to smoking.

Individuals in quadrant 2 might be expected to have a fair deal of trouble with vaping alone as an alternate to smoking. These individuals might find satisfaction with a low to moderate strength e-liquid supplemented by snus.

Individuals in quadrant 3 might be expected to find vaping wholly unsatisfactory as an alternate to smoking. These individuals might find satisfaction with a higher strength e-liquid supplemented by snus.

It should be noted that since snus contains both nicotine and tobacco MAOI's, some individuals may find that they prefer snus to vaping, and quit vaping or smoking entirely. There appears to be a fair deal of anecdotal evidence for this in the snus community.
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Don't quite know where this thread is going but I thought it might be a good idea to split off from the "Are we getting it thread" to explore ideas of what we can do in the here and now with the information we have. Perhaps a list of common problems that indicates that the purified type nicotine isn't working.

A few things I have observed that you may be missing the full range of alkaloids

Panic attacks
Higher then normal anxiety
Cognitive issues (a long list)

No doubt there are others. Perhaps with the new information on whole tobacco alkaloids we can put together a more effective way for people to quit smoking, and especially those for whom e-cig are not the whole answer.

[sunset]

Stubby, Thanks for reposting this. I actually was going to go back through that thread and try to find this information(s). That's a great thread.

A week ago, I wasn't sure where I did fit in, now after 1 month analog free and with an episode over the weekend of actually having shaking hands - a withdrawal symptom that high liquid didn't stop. Well, I was lucky to have preordered some snus from all the great information in here... to have just in case. So now I know I'm a 3 and my first experience with snus brought me back into balance, almost like I haven't felt for a month and certainly last weekend.

Yes, I'm willing to have to do both for awhile, but I still want to somehow find a way to gently be off of all of it and not give up on that. Although it looks like I've just added one more item to the mix to stay off of analogs. Don't want to give up the dream(s).

Doing some research tonight and having read it here, I'm going to order some glutamine
and see if it doesn't help in my case.

Anyway, I just want to Thank everyone for all the information and insight I've gotten.
Very appreciated!

[olderthandirt]

Great synopsis Stubby. I've been trying to follow the Are We getting thread since it started. Follow being the operative word. Lot of higher level discussion that leaves me in the bleachers...

[Vaporista]

Stubby, I'm trying to see if I fit quadrant 3 or 4 - I'm vaping only 24mg constantly but preferring 3-5 doses of pure nasal nicotine spray @ 1.5mg per dosing session (3 sprays of .5mg) as necessary daily supplementation (and enduring the absolute agony by preference! over either snuff or snus. I experimented with both but now discarded both as unsatisfactory) so I wonder if there are tobacco alkaloids in the spray (an Maoi issue) or if it's just a nicotine issue. Maybe I will discover that 36mg of juice when I can get it will remove the need for an extra +/- 6 mg of pure nicotine that I seem to be addicted to but I'm not sure.
So the issue for me is perhaps if I have a high MAOI predisposition or a low one. What is making me choose the nicotine spray over snus and snuff whilst preferring to vape high strength liquids as well. Maybe theres another axis with MAOI predisposition on another scale?

[Stubby]

Vaperista: I just read the thread you started on nasal spay. Your most definitely have a high tolerance for nicotine. I don't know how much you smoked but I'm guessing you weren't just a social smoker.

As far as anyone knows the nasal spray does not have the missing alkaloids. Perhaps the pain of doing it just kills all desire for anything (LOL)

Now, I'm not a doctor, or even dear Abby, so take everything I say with at least a cup full of salt, but a few things jumped out at me.

I believe you said you're doing 6-7 mm of 24 mg liquid, plus the nasal spray. There certainly can't be any harm in upping the mg of the liquid. That seems an obvious one. Even 36 mg might be mild for you. Get the strongest you can find and see if that helps.

About the snus: I don't know what kind you used, but again, you may want to try some of the high nicotine portions. Thunder makes a 16 mg portion that many formally heavy smokers use to keep the demons at bay. If you just used the minis it would be no surprise that it didn't do it for you.

Everyone has to figure out for themselves if they are missing the other alkaloids. The only real advice I have is give a fair shot at the different alternatives and see what works for you.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Great OP, Stubby. It really helps to get the word out to Quadrant #3 folks, like myself, who max out the nic, but still don't feel satisfaction. Finding ourselves unfocused or drifting, with little motivation to do more than breathe.

[frankie1]

Thanks for this thread Stubby...I was surely lost in the other one, but fascinated as well!!

Sunset: I would like to hear more about your shaking hands episode. I had a similar problem along with palpitations, dizziness and nausea. Have seen 3 docs and am now on low dose blood pressure meds because they cannot find a problem with my heart or anything else and just sort of glaze over when I try to tell them I think it is from tobacco withdrawal.

[DVap]

Just remember that thinking in terms of quadrants puts it down to a two dimensional set of relationships: Nicotine -vs- MAOI's. This may, in fact, be an over-simplification.

But, as they say, you have to start somewhere.

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Just remember that thinking in terms of quadrants puts it down to a two dimensional set of relationships: Nicotine -vs- MAOI's. This may, in fact, be an over-simplification.

But, as they say, you have to start somewhere.

Oh, simple's good. Simple is very good .