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Thread: Battery testing - choices for series circuits

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    Default Battery testing - choices for series circuits

    A thread for discussion of makes & models for use in 'stacked battery' mods.


    ____________________________________

    The goal of this debate would ideally be the ability for ECF to say:

    "ECF believes that for 6v use (2 x 3v) the best options are:
    Smith 16340 Li-Mn 3.2v model XYZ123
    Jones Li-FeO4 3.2v model XYZ456

    For 7.4v use (2 x 3.7v) the best options are:
    Smith 16340 Li-Mn 3.7v model ABC123
    Jones Li-XxXx 3.7v model XYZ789.

    ECF gives this advice based on safety, not performance."


    We needed a simple, straightforward answer for the best single-cell configuration battery, and the answer we decided on in the end was the AW IMR 18650. It isn't right for all circumstances but it is an all-round safe choice, with the benefit of being a simple answer. There is a huge benefit to having a simple answer even if it isn't always perfect.

    The end result here, for 2-cell configurations, needs to be a simple answer if possible - a 6v and 7.4v result where we can keep people safe. That is the main consideration. Ultimate performance under differing duty regimes is not a consideration here.

    As before, there is no liability for testers, as in the end the advice will come from ECF. We need safe choices above all else. Ultimate performance is not the issue here. For example, using a pair of a certain make of unprotected Li-ion cells might give easily the best performance - but we could never recommend that under any circumstances. We need safe.

    To go forward, how about if people post their nominations for batteries that could be considered. Let's just throw in all the names and not worry at this stage about the finer details, all that can be worked out later. The only thing I would ask at this point is: please don't suggest unprotected Li-ions since even if they will potentially run a space station for ten years, we won't be recommending them.

    There are many questions to be asked, such as: what about protected Li-ions? And: I really like Tenergy Li-FePo4 even though they are only 50c each on Alibaba? Good - just chuck it all in please :-)

    ____________________________________
    Last edited by rolygate; 03-01-2012 at 10:22 PM.
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    Ultra Member* ECF Veteran Rocketman's Avatar
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    Unless you don't think this fits here (which I will gladly delete, no harm, no foul :, I would like to point out the importance of the USER knowing how to IDENTIFY protected cells. Stacked protected cells may not fit in many mods, but falsely labeled unprotected ones probably will. Purchasing is a gamble, but once received all cells should be looked at closely. Any anomalies such as wrapper color, imprinted text should be investigated before actually putting the cells into service.

    Identifying IMR vs. unprotected may be tough. Identifying protected vs unprotected is not. Then worry about stacking them.
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    Yes. If we determine that 2 x protected Li-ion cells will fit in some/all metal tube mods that take an 18650, then maybe we can get into how to ID the PCB etc. But at this stage I don't know if it is possible to use them, due to the length, and also the trip-out factor.

    It might be easier in the end to avoid them. I have no idea, that's what this thread is for :-)
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    Registered Supplier ECF Veteran AriM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    Unless you don't think this fits here (which I will gladly delete, no harm, no foul :, I would like to point out the importance of the USER knowing how to IDENTIFY protected cells. Stacked protected cells may not fit in many mods, but falsely labeled unprotected ones probably will. Purchasing is a gamble, but once received all cells should be looked at closely. Any anomalies such as wrapper color, imprinted text should be investigated before actually putting the cells into service.

    Identifying IMR vs. unprotected may be tough. Identifying protected vs unprotected is not. Then worry about stacking them.
    +1. Couldn't agree more

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    Registered Supplier ECF Veteran AriM's Avatar
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    I think it is also important to note diameter of the cell. As an "IMR" 18350 stack will fit in an 18650 tube mode, and so will a 16340/123a, but for example....neither will work in a mantis, without first wrapping the cells in tape....to keep them from binding in the case.

    Also this is important for safety in a tube mod, as loose cells can dead short against the case and positive terminal connection....





    Last edited by AriM; 03-01-2012 at 10:21 PM.

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    Also some flat top cells can make contact with BOTH terminals in a rough stack and cause it to fire continuously in someones pocket (ask me how I know). Which is very dangerous with an unprotected cell

    I wrap all of my stacked cells in tape before installing them in ANY mod (unless it's a side by side pack....



    Last edited by AriM; 03-01-2012 at 10:31 PM.
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    Registered Supplier ECF Veteran AriM's Avatar
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    I nominate the following

    Tenergy LiFepo4 rcr123a 3.2v
    AW LiFepo4 r123a 3.2v
    AW IC ICR123 protected 3.7v
    AW IMR 16340 unprotected 3.7v
    AW IMR 18350 unprotected 3.7v

    should we be including 14500's and other 2 cell configurations in this as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rolygate View Post

    It might be easier in the end to avoid them. I have no idea, that's what this thread is for :-)
    That would eliminate the user putting what he thinks are protected cells into a stacked battery mod.

    Just because one vaper gets better life from his Brand Y protected short cells doesn't mean you will get the same life, or even the same cells when you order. Counterfeit wrappers, several shades of blue or green, or red, need to be addressed or anything deemed safe will be counterfeited and show up in the market. Granted, the AW line of cells is respected and IMR chemistry has a better chance of surviving with a "Heavy Vaper" (what ever that means) but trip points designed into a protection circuit should represent cell capabilities, and when used within these limits should show the user he just tried to do something wrong. Thus the posts "my Brand Z mod trips out when I go over X volts". If the trip point on a small protected cell is not high enough for you, you picked the wrong cell. If your stacked battery mod also has a trip point, how can you tell which caused the trip?

    When using smaller cells, like the 16340 and 18350, the protection circuit takes up valuable space in the overall package. Many complain about the protection circuit, how many understand what it is doing? How many know the actual overcurrent trip point of their protected cells?

    I expect to see reports of unprotected cells sold as protected, or protected small, over stressed cells not living up to the load of a heavy vaper. Until a user can determine what level of stress and load he is putting on his stacked cells he is probably better off with the biggest meanest cells available, damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead
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    Quote Originally Posted by AriM View Post
    should we be including 14500's and other 2 cell configurations in this as well?
    Not familiar with all the 'stacked battery tube mods', but don't some use 18350 cells?
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    Mainly this is for tube mods (at first). I think that puts us in the RC123 / 16340 / 18350 sort of size (length is the thing here).

    I don't know of any tube mods that take 2 x 14500 cells, but we should look at that later for the boxmods.

    Yeah I should have said: tube mod batts first please
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