It would be.
Perhaps as time goes by, some Long Term Studies will start to surface.
Especially with regards to the Long Term use of inhaling Flavorings, Colorants and Artificial Sweeteners.
Which, IMO, may pose the Greatest Risk in the Long Run.
- Status
It would be.
Perhaps as time goes by, some Long Term Studies will start to surface.
Especially with regards to the Long Term use of inhaling Flavorings, Colorants and Artificial Sweeteners.
Which, IMO, may pose the Greatest Risk in the Long Run.
I agree in that smoking is an all emcompassing habit. Not just the nicotine, but the social, emotional, psychological aspects, the physical hand to mouth behavior. All is part of the same addiction. And we all had/have triggers we associate with this behavior.
This, to me, is what makes ecigs pure genius as it covers all aspects of the 'addiction'.
As to telling an adult what to do? Good luck with that.
just my 2 pennies.
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I don't see a major issue with 0 nic juice and non smokers. Underage people should hold off on vaping until they are of age unless perhaps they are already are heavy smokers and want to stop (we all know there are some young people who smoke). I do see vaping as reduced risk to smoking. Maybe not completely free of risk, but what is?
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree in that smoking is an all emcompassing habit. Not just the nicotine, but the social, emotional, psychological aspects, the physical hand to mouth behavior. All is part of the same addiction. And we all had/have triggers we associate with this behavior.
This, to me, is what makes ecigs pure genius as it covers all aspects of the 'addiction'.
As to telling an adult what to do? Good luck with that.
just my 2 pennies.
Very Well Put Sugar_and_Spice.
One thing to remember here, decaffeinated coffee is not the same as caffeine free coffee.
Decaf Coffee Isn't Caffeine-Free
Most decaffeinated coffee does contain caffeine.
Does that mean nicotine and caffeine have the same addictive properties, my opinion is no, but I will get bad headaches if I have no caffeine. When I smoked cigarettes, I couldn't quite cold turkey no matter what, but with vaping, I can go longer periods without having problems than when I was smoking. I personally am not willing to put it to the test to see what I'm more addicted to, I just know that I'm addicted to both.
As for non-vapors / non-smokers who want to start, if they are adults they have to make that choice. I would rather they stay away from both, but I think vaping is much better than smoking, so given the choice, I think they should vape. if they want to use nicotine when they vape, again, they are adults and can make their own decisions.
When it comes to kids and vaping or smoking, I have a different opinion. Kids are the responsibility of their parents. I applaud vapor shops that will not sell to minors, and I think that is a good policy. If a child wants to vape, have the parents take responsibility for it and either they will allow it and buy the equipment for their children or they will not allow it. The only requirement here would be that parents would have to take responsibility for it, and that will not happen in a lot of cases.
Unless we legislate parent responsibility (which I am extremely opposed to even considering), I think it is a better option to never sell to minors and to confiscate the equipment on school grounds etc.
Very few of us would say it is ok for a 10 year old to go and buy a bottle of Vodka. We have to draw a line somewhere, and currently the line is either 18 or 21 (in the US) depending on the product. If we are going to say that kids should be able to vape, we should be saying they should be able to smoke and drink also. I think this is a bad road to go down because children are still developing physically and mentally. Maybe there should be a different line (14, 16) for vaping, but I personally don't think so.
My opinion, 18 to smoke, 18 to vape.
Sorry for the rant and getting off the soapbox of pretentiousness and self-righteousness now.
A lot of kids pick up smoking because they want,to look cool. It would be much better if they snuck omg vaping. I'm not advocating selling to underage kids, but if my grandchild were to to pick one, I'd rather it be vaping. Kids are always going to experiment, but hopefully they don't.
This is a very interesting discussion. I'm technically a "non-smoker". I don't smoke cigarettes (never have), only cigars and pipes, and that is 2-4 times a month, tops. I don't smoke for nicotine and I vape 0 strength juices.
I really enjoy the taste of tobacco, and I find the processing of sucking smoke into my mouth and letting it drift away to be very enjoyable. I like vaping for the same reasons (although it doesn't really taste like tobacco). I even use herbal snuff on a regular basis because I like the simulated tobacco flavor (although it's usually too sweet), even though real dip makes me violently ill.
So as a non-smoker, neither smoking nor vaping has ever been about the nicotine for me. It's about the ritual and sensation, mostly.
Sometimes I'm concerned about the effect of inhaling vapor into my lungs, so I try not to inhale the vapor all the time-- usually just suck into my mouth and exhale it out my nose to get the flavor. I've read a few studies that say it irritates the bronchial passages slightly every time you do it, increasing airflow resistance. In the short term it's not that big of a deal, but I love my body, and I don't want to hurt it.
I definitely smoke less when I vape juices I like, but I also vape more than I ever smoke. So it's kind of a dilemna...
I really enjoy the taste of tobacco, and I find the processing of sucking smoke into my mouth and letting it drift away to be very enjoyable. I like vaping for the same reasons (although it doesn't really taste like tobacco). I even use herbal snuff on a regular basis because I like the simulated tobacco flavor (although it's usually too sweet), even though real dip makes me violently ill.
So as a non-smoker, neither smoking nor vaping has ever been about the nicotine for me. It's about the ritual and sensation, mostly.
Sometimes I'm concerned about the effect of inhaling vapor into my lungs, so I try not to inhale the vapor all the time-- usually just suck into my mouth and exhale it out my nose to get the flavor. I've read a few studies that say it irritates the bronchial passages slightly every time you do it, increasing airflow resistance. In the short term it's not that big of a deal, but I love my body, and I don't want to hurt it.
I definitely smoke less when I vape juices I like, but I also vape more than I ever smoke. So it's kind of a dilemna...
I've just got to ask,
Your wife isn't called kaye by any chance?
Don't mind me, just having a huge coincidence.
Your wife isn't called kaye by any chance?
Don't mind me, just having a huge coincidence.
It amazes me how much the opinion has changed in the year I've been a member on the forum. It used to be any non nicotine user was just about run off the forum.
I'm glad things have lightened up. Adults should be free to decide what they do to or put into their own body. Use nicotine if you want, I enjoy it why should I or anyone else tell another adult person not to.
Underage, I am undecided on. 0mg nic I've got no problem with. My gut wants me to say no to nicotine, but I can't make a good argument for that position. It doesn't impair judgment like alcohol and affects the body similar enough to caffeine and they are allowed to buy all the soda or coffee that they want.
Of course I believe their parents should have the final say in it, even if the law allows for it.
Hiding mobile.
I'm glad things have lightened up. Adults should be free to decide what they do to or put into their own body. Use nicotine if you want, I enjoy it why should I or anyone else tell another adult person not to.
Underage, I am undecided on. 0mg nic I've got no problem with. My gut wants me to say no to nicotine, but I can't make a good argument for that position. It doesn't impair judgment like alcohol and affects the body similar enough to caffeine and they are allowed to buy all the soda or coffee that they want.
Of course I believe their parents should have the final say in it, even if the law allows for it.
Hiding mobile.
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My brother in law was very intrigued by my vaping and whenever we would drink together he would ask to hit my vape every once in a while. He is not and never has been a cigarette smoker. He recently purchased a cheap ego and a couple of flavors saying "sometimes I just feel like smoking something." Although he isn't a cig smoker he is a moderate (albeit every day) ......... smoker. According to my sister, he is smoking less of that stuff now. I guess he really did enjoy the simple act of smoking and before vaping the best choice for him was pot.
I honestly thought it was kinda stupid of him to take up vaping when he wasn't a smoker. But if vaping has lessened his interest in an illicit drug then I have to admit it's totally worth it.
I honestly thought it was kinda stupid of him to take up vaping when he wasn't a smoker. But if vaping has lessened his interest in an illicit drug then I have to admit it's totally worth it.
@ZeroClue: nope.
@Hiding: nicotine is considered the most addictive of all drugs (yes, doctors consider it more addictive than even ......). So, health arguments aside, I would never, ever give something so powerful to a child who is still barely learning how to delay gratification. That's just setting them up for a lifelong battle of dependency. Kids are already way overstimulated as it is. The last thing they need is another stimulant in their mind/body.
@Hiding: nicotine is considered the most addictive of all drugs (yes, doctors consider it more addictive than even ......). So, health arguments aside, I would never, ever give something so powerful to a child who is still barely learning how to delay gratification. That's just setting them up for a lifelong battle of dependency. Kids are already way overstimulated as it is. The last thing they need is another stimulant in their mind/body.
I think a cigarette addiction involves several chemicals not just nicotine, as you would get from vaping. So cigarette vs. coffee addiction maybe not be the same comparison as vaping vs. coffee.
Really, what's all the fuss with non-smokers vaping? I was a non-smoker 17 years ago, before I started. And then I smoked. And I enjoyed it. I switched to vaping for my family's benefit, but I still smoke at work because I still enjoy it.
An adult is going to do whatever they want, regardless of whether someone else wants them to or not.
Hell, my wife has thought about vaping to help ease her migraines, since in some cases nicotine can aid in headache relief. She's tried my PV a few times, even though I've warned her about the strength I use. It's a 36 mg liquid, in case you're curious. Sometimes cut with some 24 mg WTA. I don't think she's going to do it, but if she does I'll be happy to help her get what she needs.
No kids shouldn't vape. But once they're 18, they're free to do what they like within the limits of the law. This hobby isn't just a smoking cessation product or pastime. Nor should it be.
An adult is going to do whatever they want, regardless of whether someone else wants them to or not.
Hell, my wife has thought about vaping to help ease her migraines, since in some cases nicotine can aid in headache relief. She's tried my PV a few times, even though I've warned her about the strength I use. It's a 36 mg liquid, in case you're curious. Sometimes cut with some 24 mg WTA. I don't think she's going to do it, but if she does I'll be happy to help her get what she needs.
No kids shouldn't vape. But once they're 18, they're free to do what they like within the limits of the law. This hobby isn't just a smoking cessation product or pastime. Nor should it be.
Do people who aren't addicted to tobacco not have better things to do with their time than vape? It keeps me from smoking, it may keep others from starting smoking. But why start any of it?
People vape just to taste the flavor? To make vapor clouds? Everyone I know personally uses vaping to stop smoking, and are dropping the nic levels that their comfort level allows, with the goal of stopping completely. Inhaling something other than air is not on my list of things I want to continue doing, I just messed up and started an unnatural habit of inhaling something instead of breathing.
I think vaping is a great way to stop using tobacco, myself and many people I know feel this intently. But to do this as a hobby without a habit to start with, well imo people need more hobbies to choose from.
Vaporizing anything isn't a natural way to go. Is it safer than smoking? probably. But why in the world would someone do this if not trying to reduce harm, instead of saying "well, at least I'm not smoking tobacco!" It's like saying I smoke m, but at least I'm not smoking c, so it's ok...
I am not telling anyone what to do, have at it. Just don't think it is a good thing to do, or that it is OK, because it isn't.
/opinion
People vape just to taste the flavor? To make vapor clouds? Everyone I know personally uses vaping to stop smoking, and are dropping the nic levels that their comfort level allows, with the goal of stopping completely. Inhaling something other than air is not on my list of things I want to continue doing, I just messed up and started an unnatural habit of inhaling something instead of breathing.
I think vaping is a great way to stop using tobacco, myself and many people I know feel this intently. But to do this as a hobby without a habit to start with, well imo people need more hobbies to choose from.
Vaporizing anything isn't a natural way to go. Is it safer than smoking? probably. But why in the world would someone do this if not trying to reduce harm, instead of saying "well, at least I'm not smoking tobacco!" It's like saying I smoke m, but at least I'm not smoking c, so it's ok...
I am not telling anyone what to do, have at it. Just don't think it is a good thing to do, or that it is OK, because it isn't.
/opinion
I've seen at least two studies which clearly indicate that well over 95% of US vapers started out smoking cigarettes, or using other forms of tobacco. Don't have the links handy at the moment, but the "gateway" argument is totally unsubstantiated for Americans (at least for now). I mention this because your profile says that you're from Bangkok, which I understand to have different social norms about smoking.
Doesn't mean you won't hear a lot about the whole "vaping is a gateway to smoking" argument in the media. But then you also hear that "e-cigarettes contain [put your favorite junk science study here, there are at least 2-3 to choose from]."
It's interesting because we are at a turning point with regard to vaping and its relationship to smoking, and the relationship of both to social norms and public health. First off anyone can choose to use nicotine if they like, in any way the like, if they are not bothering others. Clearly people who used to smoke have a clear moral and practical justification for vaping.
Then for anyone who wanted to try nicotine, choosing vaping is much smarter than choosing cigarettes.
That leaves people who want to try vaping for flavor and/or the act of blowing vapor clouds. This is an interesting moral exercise.
The ANTZ decry vaping as "normalizing smoking" i.e. it looks like smoking so it would tend to get people to smoke. Total bull..... So if that is bull...., and a person wants to do it because it's fun or enjoyable ... who is anyone to judge that?
As vaping takes over and smoking becomes less and less common, perhaps for future generations, vaping won't be saddled with the baggage of corporations literally selling out peoples' health for profits. And then vaporizers basically become toys. I'm not sure what a social corollary is ... maybe chewing gum?
Then for anyone who wanted to try nicotine, choosing vaping is much smarter than choosing cigarettes.
That leaves people who want to try vaping for flavor and/or the act of blowing vapor clouds. This is an interesting moral exercise.
The ANTZ decry vaping as "normalizing smoking" i.e. it looks like smoking so it would tend to get people to smoke. Total bull..... So if that is bull...., and a person wants to do it because it's fun or enjoyable ... who is anyone to judge that?
As vaping takes over and smoking becomes less and less common, perhaps for future generations, vaping won't be saddled with the baggage of corporations literally selling out peoples' health for profits. And then vaporizers basically become toys. I'm not sure what a social corollary is ... maybe chewing gum?
cue Methylphenidate addiction
kids are fed ritalin en masse these days. seemingly without thought for consequence.
personally, i feel in many cases, the parents are in a better position to know whether the kids need psyche drugs than a "doctor". though, many are spoon fed ultimatums via "the system". thus the cycle begins of systematic dependence. that is to say, dependent on the psyche meds until the system is no longer involved and they are weened off and expected to "be normal" in a society where normalcy is the antithesis of the norm.
personally, i hope and wish to see the day where "psyche" is a legitimate occupation less like barbers of the days of old that performed frontal lobotomies when a persons "mind was wrong". less experimenting with substance and more scientific proof of cause and effect, etc..
EDIT: i challenge anyone who suggests that skipping the middle man and going straight to vaping is a bad idea to justify their decision to smoke in the first place with legitimacy and conviction.
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cue Methylphenidate addiction
EDIT: i challenge anyone who suggests that skipping the middle man and going straight to vaping is a bad idea to justify their decision to smoke in the first place with legitimacy and conviction.
Challenge accepted. Why in the hell is anyone inhaling anything other than air? WHY?!? if you just want nicotine chew the gum, wear a patch. Oh, that's right, its cool and a hobby. lol
with conviction btw
So we're back on this debate once again--another chance for many to get on their high horse and criticize those who chose to vape. Even though most apparently felt it was acceptable behavior for themselves to smoke analogs (which had been proven to be dangerous) for years. Get it through your heads that some people actually find vaping to be enjoyable and some find the nicotine to be beneficial! Jeez...
Rolygate posted this list of quotes from experts in the field of medicine and public health regarding nicotine addiction:
1. "If all the smokers in Britain stopped smoking cigarettes and started smoking e-cigarettes we would save five million deaths in people who are alive today. Its a massive potential public health prize."
- J Britton, Royal College of Physicians
2. "We have such a massive opportunity here. It would be a shame to let it slip away by being overly cautious. E-cigarettes are about as safe as you can get."
- R West
3. "Three months of additional smoking poses a greater risk to someones health, on average, than a lifetime of using a low-risk alternative."
- CV Phillips
4. "E-cigarettes are probably about as safe as drinking coffee."
- R West
Alternatively, try these bullet points (all citations are on the References page of the Ecigarette Politics site):
1. Smoking causes the existing dependence on nicotine, you can't 'catch it' from NRTs or ecigs - they help you deal with it. The cocktail of boosters and synergens in tobacco smoke causes nicotine dependence.
2. There is good evidence that ecig users can reduce their nicotine consumption, as most do this. Many taper down to low levels, and some eventually quit the nicotine entirely. Many feel that it is far easier to both reduce the nicotine intake gradually and even quit totally by using the stepping-stone of an ecig than to quit smoking abruptly.
3. We also need to take into account those who could not quit smoking by any method, and some ecig users tried multiple times to quit, failing every time. Should we force them back to smoking, when ecigs are likely to prove 1,000 times less harmful than smoking?
4. There is a huge amount of research data on the safety of long-term consumption of nicotine from Sweden, where smoking is in the process of being eliminated by THR products. Male smoking prevalence in Sweden falls at 1% per year and will be 5% by 2016. Nicotine consumption is regarded as having no clinical significance as a result, since the health outcomes of smokers who quit totally and smokers who switch to Snus are the same. Pharmaceutical companies who apply for long-term treatment licences for their NRT products use the Swedish data because it proves (not suggests or demonstrates or provides evidence: *it proves*) that long-term nicotine consumption without smoke has no clinical significance. Swedens's national health statistics are unique in the Western world as a result.
5. The UK doctors' official clinical guidance organisation, NICE, have clearly instructed UK medical professionals, in NICE PH45, that nicotine is not associated with cancer, heart disease, or any other medical condition. The US FDA no longer regard nicotine as either harmful or dependence-forming, and are currently carrying out a consultation to determine if there is any reason why they should not remove warnings from nicotine-containing medicines.
6. There is not one single published clinical trial that reports that pure nicotine administered to never-smokers creates dependence. If anyone tells you there is, ask for a link: no one else in the medical world has seen it. In contrast there are at least 6 clinical trials of pure nicotine administered in high doses to never-smokers for several months where no dependence resulted at all. (These trials were for measuring the beneficial effects of nicotine on some medical conditions such as cognitive dysfunction and auto-immune diseases.)
7. The current status of research indicates very strongly that ecigs cannot create nicotine dependence.
8. Nicotine dependence caused by smoking can be reduced by using an ecig. Even if the vaper never quits, the dependence is harmless. *It has no clinical significance*. There is a growing body of evidence that a dependence on coffee is more harmful - and no one has ever suggested that coffee should be restricted and regulated, or that coffee adverts should be prohibited, or that coffee is being marketed to kids.
Great information, thank you Rolygate!
1. "If all the smokers in Britain stopped smoking cigarettes and started smoking e-cigarettes we would save five million deaths in people who are alive today. Its a massive potential public health prize."
- J Britton, Royal College of Physicians
2. "We have such a massive opportunity here. It would be a shame to let it slip away by being overly cautious. E-cigarettes are about as safe as you can get."
- R West
3. "Three months of additional smoking poses a greater risk to someones health, on average, than a lifetime of using a low-risk alternative."
- CV Phillips
4. "E-cigarettes are probably about as safe as drinking coffee."
- R West
Alternatively, try these bullet points (all citations are on the References page of the Ecigarette Politics site):
1. Smoking causes the existing dependence on nicotine, you can't 'catch it' from NRTs or ecigs - they help you deal with it. The cocktail of boosters and synergens in tobacco smoke causes nicotine dependence.
2. There is good evidence that ecig users can reduce their nicotine consumption, as most do this. Many taper down to low levels, and some eventually quit the nicotine entirely. Many feel that it is far easier to both reduce the nicotine intake gradually and even quit totally by using the stepping-stone of an ecig than to quit smoking abruptly.
3. We also need to take into account those who could not quit smoking by any method, and some ecig users tried multiple times to quit, failing every time. Should we force them back to smoking, when ecigs are likely to prove 1,000 times less harmful than smoking?
4. There is a huge amount of research data on the safety of long-term consumption of nicotine from Sweden, where smoking is in the process of being eliminated by THR products. Male smoking prevalence in Sweden falls at 1% per year and will be 5% by 2016. Nicotine consumption is regarded as having no clinical significance as a result, since the health outcomes of smokers who quit totally and smokers who switch to Snus are the same. Pharmaceutical companies who apply for long-term treatment licences for their NRT products use the Swedish data because it proves (not suggests or demonstrates or provides evidence: *it proves*) that long-term nicotine consumption without smoke has no clinical significance. Swedens's national health statistics are unique in the Western world as a result.
5. The UK doctors' official clinical guidance organisation, NICE, have clearly instructed UK medical professionals, in NICE PH45, that nicotine is not associated with cancer, heart disease, or any other medical condition. The US FDA no longer regard nicotine as either harmful or dependence-forming, and are currently carrying out a consultation to determine if there is any reason why they should not remove warnings from nicotine-containing medicines.
6. There is not one single published clinical trial that reports that pure nicotine administered to never-smokers creates dependence. If anyone tells you there is, ask for a link: no one else in the medical world has seen it. In contrast there are at least 6 clinical trials of pure nicotine administered in high doses to never-smokers for several months where no dependence resulted at all. (These trials were for measuring the beneficial effects of nicotine on some medical conditions such as cognitive dysfunction and auto-immune diseases.)
7. The current status of research indicates very strongly that ecigs cannot create nicotine dependence.
8. Nicotine dependence caused by smoking can be reduced by using an ecig. Even if the vaper never quits, the dependence is harmless. *It has no clinical significance*. There is a growing body of evidence that a dependence on coffee is more harmful - and no one has ever suggested that coffee should be restricted and regulated, or that coffee adverts should be prohibited, or that coffee is being marketed to kids.
Great information, thank you Rolygate!
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