Should I upgrade my battery?

[tfraley]

Good day guys.

I'm new to rebuilding and want your guys thoughts on if I should upgrade my batteries

Hardware:

• TugBoat (brass)
• Nemesis mod clone (brass)
• Upgraded magnet switch & some pollshing
• 24g Kath

Plan:

My plan is to hit close to .25ohms with 24g Kat. I used a buddy at this ohm and I became very fond of it.
​

Current Build:

26g Kat at .7 -.8phms
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Problem:

Safety always coming first I wonder if I should upgrade my batteries and want some input from more experienced vapers then myself.
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The math:

So wanting to .25 Ohms with a 3.7v (18650) were looking at 14.4 amps and around 54.76 watts
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The battery:

I'm currently using MNKE IMR-18650 1500mAh 3.7v Orange batteries (picked up at local vape shop with my mod a few months ago)

I'm seeing Manufacture specs ranging from 20A-25A continuous discharging rate and pulsing about 80A
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Main Question:

Is the 6A head room (20A-14A=6A) enough to be safe
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I was thinking about picking up a pair of Efest 18650 35A 2500mAh 3.7v amazon (if they were prime I would of ordered them already and none of the local shops have them)

​

​

 

[State O' Flux]

Main Question:

Is the 6A head room (20A-14A=6A) enough to be safe
​

 

[tfraley]

Thanks,

I just ordered a pair of Efest 18650 35A 2500mAh just to be on the safer side but I do feel better.

Basic question what kind of signs do you look for if your pushing the battery to hard.

ie gradual build up of head in the mod while vaping? or will it be instant, like a 5sec boom.?

 

[roosterado]

Good BAttery advice IMO I would limit my use of the Panasonics in regulated devices that Do Not Fire Below .5 ohm-even though as the reviewer say Regualted devices have a current {amp] limit in the control board]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb4nj91as9k

 

[State O' Flux]

Basic question what kind of signs do you look for if your pushing the battery to hard.

I don't push too hard. I never run below 0.3Ω, so anything with an 18a or better continuous discharge rating provides more than enough cushion. Calculate a conservative 1.5X CDR for your momentary discharge at an equally conservative 10 seconds... and I have no worries.

You don't have any worries either... you have plenty of safety margin at .25Ω. I'd be more concerned that your ohm meter is accurate. If you're off by 0.1Ω... or worse, .15Ω... your pushing 42 amps.

I use a Tech-Thing "half-ohm" DMM adapter on a Fluke 88.

 

[Wraith504]

Thanks,

I just ordered a pair of Efest 18650 35A 2500mAh just to be on the safer side but I do feel better.

Basic question what kind of signs do you look for if your pushing the battery to hard.

ie gradual build up of head in the mod while vaping? or will it be instant, like a 5sec boom.?

Cancel those and order the vtc5s. the efest are a 35amp pulse rating not continuous. The vtc4s and vtc5s are 30amp continuous and 60 amp pulse. Only batteries i ever use for sub ohming.

 

[tfraley]

Cancel those and order the vtc5s. the efest are a 35amp pulse rating not continuous. The vtc4s and vtc5s are 30amp continuous and 60 amp pulse. Only batteries i ever use for sub ohming.

The specs online I read were were 35 continuous do you have any links stating other wise? I originally thought to go with sony but after watching the Pegasus academy youtube video on batteries .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2--worq4ekE I was a bit worried about not getting a real sony and what he says makes a lot of sense.

I am new to this so still learning

 

[Baditude]

The specs online I read were were 35 continuous do you have any links stating other wise?

Efest is notorious for over-rating their battery specs, to the point where in some cases it is dangerous to unknowing consumers (like yourself).

Purple Efests Not As Advertised

The advertised "35 amps" turns out to be the "pulse discharge rating", which is pretty much an abstract & meaningless number. Everyone has their own definition of what a pulse rating is, so it can not be counted on to compare one battery against another. The "continuous discharge rating" is the industry standard and this is the specification that we should recognize and use.

If your setup relies on the pulse rating, it is instantly over specification for the battery.

 

[Wraith504]

The specs online I read were were 35 continuous do you have any links stating other wise? I originally thought to go with sony but after watching the Pegasus academy youtube video on batteries .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2--worq4ekE I was a bit worried about not getting a real sony and what he says makes a lot of sense.

I am new to this so still learning

Baditude is the battery guru! Read, Comprehend, and Learn!

 

[tfraley]

Efest is notorious for over-rating their battery specs, to the point where in some cases it is dangerous to unknowing consumers (like yourself).

Purple Efests Not As Advertised

The advertised "35 amps" turns out to be the "pulse discharge rating", which is pretty much an abstract & meaningless number. Everyone has their own definition of what a pulse rating is, so it can not be counted on to compare one battery against another. The "continuous discharge rating" is the industry standard and this is the specification that we should recognize and use.

If your setup relies on the pulse rating, it is instantly over specification for the battery.

Thank you for that,

I went ahead and canceled my order on amazon.

What battery would you suggest? I'm just afraid of getting a fake sony battery

Can you suggest a battery and seller (would prefer something on amazon but its all good)

 

[Baditude]

Personally, I buy all of my batteries from RTD Vapor. I would never consider buying batteries from Amazon or EBay because of the very high risk that they would be counterfeits.

All of my batteries are the red AW IMR batteries (14500, 18350, 18490, and 18650). I've never had one AW battery fail or disappoint me. In fact, I have a couple of 18650 AW batteries that are over 2 years old and still going strong in my rotation.



Actually, I do have a pair of Sony VTC4 and a pair of Sony VTC5 for my mechanical mods using a sub-ohm resistance of 0.6 ohms. That's well within their spec amp rating.

 

[tfraley]

Ok so just looked up like 6 reliable place for some VTC5's or even VTC4's seems everyone is sold out. Any one know of a reliable source that has some in stock?

 

[Wraith504]

Ok so just looked up like 6 reliable place for some VTC5's or even VTC4's seems everyone is sold out. Any one know of a reliable source that has some in stock?

18650 Sony US18650VTC4 2100mAh High Discharge Flat Top
Google a coupon code for them as well. I dont remember but there is one that is ongoing.

 

[beckdg]

Personally, I buy all of my batteries from RTD Vapor. I would never consider buying batteries from Amazon or EBay because of the very high risk that they would be counterfeits.

All of my batteries are the red AW IMR batteries (14500, 18350, 18490, and 18650). I've never had one AW battery fail or disappoint me. In fact, I have a couple of 18650 AW batteries that are over 2 years old and still going strong in my rotation.

View attachment 371571

Actually, I do have a pair of Sony VTC4 and a pair of Sony VTC5 for my mechanical mods using a sub-ohm resistance of 0.6 ohms. That's well within their spec amp rating.

I wish I knew you'd put some batteries through their paces. I have 0.19 ohm builds on a few of my daily drivers and my Sony vtc5 batteries started off strong. The vtc4 sucked right off the bat. But these days my vtc5's are sagging more and more and not usually charging all the way to 4.2V. Though my samsungs are performing like they were brand new despite having at least triple the cycles my vtc5's have.

Personally I'm not impressed like I should be by the Sony batteries. I think my next purchase is going to be the LG he2 cells. If the graphs and info I've seen hold true there's a great possibility the he2 could be a much better cell for lower sub ohm builds than any of the Sony cells to date over the long haul. I'm already convinced the Samsung is.

Food for thought. What is the industry standard for continuous amp rating? 80% capacity discharge? 3.5 to 3.9v range like military specs? Pulsing discharge or flat line? Is the current controlled or calculated? Is it lab tested or calculated? What's the temperature range for a "continuous" discharge. Can that be done in the middle of the Mojave desert and the North Pole or only with liquid cooling in a 70 deg F?

One thing to consider. The 30 amp stat on the vtc5 is inherently false since a 20 amp true continuous full discharge causes the cell to exceed it's maximum rated temperature of 60 deg C. This is not true for the 20 amp rated cells... or the saggy vtc4.

 

[Baditude]

Well, my position is I pay no attention to pulse ratings. At best they are arbitrary and give a false sense of security. I only pay attention to the continuous discharge rating, and try to insure that the manufacturer is advertising the continuous and not the pulse rating (purple Efest).

1.0 ohm = 4.2 amp draw
0.9 ohm = 4.6 amp draw
0.8 ohm = 5.2 amp draw
0.7 ohms = 6 amp draw
0.6 ohms = 7 amp draw
0.5 ohms = 8.4 amp draw
0.4 ohms = 10.5 amp draw
0.3 ohms = 14.0 amp draw
0.2 ohms = 21.0 amp draw
0.1 ohms = 42.0 amp draw
0.0 ohms = dead short = battery goes into thermal runaway

I believe using the pulse rating instantly makes your build over spec, and leaves you with no safe headroom for a battery failure. Even when using the continuous rating, I believe some safe headroom is necessary.

I wouldn't use a 20 amp continuous battery with a coil lower than 0.4 ohm.
I wouldn't use a 30 amp continuous battery with a coil lower than 0.3 ohm.

Something like a loose post screw can unknowingly change the resistance to drop 0.2 ohms or more. Just 0.2 ohms is too easy for a coil to change resistance and become a potential battery failure.

 

[DaPopeLP]

The top batteries on the market for low ohm mech builds are the vtc series, samsung 20r, 24r and 25r. There is a LG battery that i forget the name of (HE2 or something like that) that is supposedly great but I have no clue on that one.

As for a place for vtc4s, this is my local BM. I buy from them. Can verify they are legit
https://vastvapor.3dcartstores.com/

 

[tfraley]

Yha I have local shop that carries the LG battery they claim their the best. Just called them they seem to have some vtc4's in stock might swing by their on the way home.

Should I pick up the LG's or keep with the vtc4? I read mix'd things with LG's... Battery always get me why can't their be one solid battery company that manufactures them selves and post full accurate details. Always seems their either all not all showing the same specs or their just a wrapped version of another battery. This is all confusing and hard to determine what to go with.

 

[Wraith504]

I wish I knew you'd put some batteries through their paces. I have 0.19 ohm builds on a few of my daily drivers and my Sony vtc5 batteries started off strong. The vtc4 sucked right off the bat. But these days my vtc5's are sagging more and more and not usually charging all the way to 4.2V. Though my samsungs are performing like they were brand new despite having at least triple the cycles my vtc5's have.

Personally I'm not impressed like I should be by the Sony batteries. I think my next purchase is going to be the LG he2 cells. If the graphs and info I've seen hold true there's a great possibility the he2 could be a much better cell for lower sub ohm builds than any of the Sony cells to date over the long haul. I'm already convinced the Samsung is.

Food for thought. What is the industry standard for continuous amp rating? 80% capacity discharge? 3.5 to 3.9v range like military specs? Pulsing discharge or flat line? Is the current controlled or calculated? Is it lab tested or calculated? What's the temperature range for a "continuous" discharge. Can that be done in the middle of the Mojave desert and the North Pole or only with liquid cooling in a 70 deg F?

One thing to consider. The 30 amp stat on the vtc5 is inherently false since a 20 amp true continuous full discharge causes the cell to exceed it's maximum rated temperature of 60 deg C. This is not true for the 20 amp rated cells... or the saggy vtc4.

I put my vtc5s through .14 - .20 with zero issues. all of them still charge up hold a charge and perform to my expectations. Ive compared them to the samsungs that a friend has and they seem to discharge awfully quick and dont seem to hold at their rated continuous for very long as the vape quality drops significantly.

 

[DaPopeLP]

Yha I have local shop that carries the LG battery they claim their the best. Just called them they seem to have some vtc4's in stock might swing by their on the way home.

Should I pick up the LG's or keep with the vtc4? I read mix'd things with LG's... Battery always get me why can't their be one solid battery company that manufactures them selves and post full accurate details. Always seems their either all not all showing the same specs or their just a wrapped version of another battery. This is all confusing and hard to determine what to go with.

Depends on your build. I use vtc as they are available local and I build low. From what I hear the LG lasts much longer but I can not attest to that personally. The samsung 20r is supposedly the hardest hitting battery available though and can handle very low ohm builds.

 

[Wraith504]

The top batteries on the market for low ohm mech builds are the vtc series, samsung 20r, 24r and 25r. There is a LG battery that i forget the name of (HE2 or something like that) that is supposedly great but I have no clue on that one.

As for a place for vtc4s, this is my local BM. I buy from them. Can verify they are legit
https://vastvapor.3dcartstores.com/

The lg and samsung are both rated around 20 or 22 amp continuous i think... Ill stick with the vtc5s