Vaping is not a complete substitute for tobacco smoking

[Kate]

Translated by Google.

I invite you to read this very important release of the National Center for Scientific Research in welcoming the move the courage of the team of Professor Jean-Pol Tassin,



Paris, 23 January 2009
Smoking cessation: how effective substitutes for nicotine?

Nicotine is generally regarded as the main component responsible for the addictive properties of tobacco. Yet, a research team from the CNRS and the College de France directed by Jean Pol Tassin, director of research at Inserm has to prove that nicotine alone is not enough to trigger a state of dependency among smokers. Other compounds in tobacco are needed to reveal the addictive power. This discovery also explains why nicotine substitutes used in smoking cessation are ineffective in the long term.
This work has been published in the advance online edition of the Journal of Neuroscience.

Without being associated with certain components of tobacco, nicotine is not addictive. The main result from the research conducted by Jean Pol Tassin is a further step towards understanding the mechanisms of drug dependence.

Over the past two years (1), this team of researchers has shown that drugs such as ......., amphetamines, morphine, alcohol or even lead to a separation (or "decoupling") between two sets of neurons, noradrenergic and serotonergic (2). The first set is to develop external events, the other to control impulses. Dependents feel environmental stimuli in a more intense (including the desire of the product) and lose the ability to control their impulses. Under normal circumstances, these neural circuits to control each other. But the disconnect between the two leads to an imbalance that seems responsible for the process of addiction, the dependent person can no longer restrain his attraction to the product.

It is that nicotine, unlike other drugs, does not decoupling. To try to understand why smoking has, however, a very strong addictive potential, researchers are interested in other compounds. In this new work, scientists demonstrated that the combination of nicotine with other products in tobacco, monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs), which leads to this decoupling. Specifically, they show that MAOIs can be addictive properties of nicotine because they nullify the action of natural protection that serotonergic neurons have vis-à-vis the nicotine: the serotonin receptor 5-HT1A . The effect of nicotine on the release of serotonin is so intense that happens in fractions of seconds a "feedback control", which then blocked the release of serotonin. This phenomenon of "retro control" is possible only when the 5-HT1A receptors play their protective role. Without this protection, serotonergic neurons are activated by nicotine, they decouple and trigger the process of addiction.

"80% of users of nicotine patches to resume smoking"
In conclusion of this work, the authors explain why the current therapies fail to stop smoking in many cases. Among candidates for quitting smoking, chewing gum and patches are effective at the beginning of treatment, as the effects of persistent MAOI. But after a few weeks of weaning the absence of tobacco (and thus WAMI), permits the return of natural protection. Nicotine alone is not enough as a substitute.

For Jean Pol Tassin "This work could help improve the approaches to treatment of nicotine dependence. They also call into question the effectiveness of current products alternative to tobacco and to understand why, in more than 80% of cases, users of patches and chewing nicotine gum to resume smoking after just a few weeks. A new composition combining nicotine products and blocking the natural protection from 5-HT1A receptors would be effective as an alternative to tobacco. This could be used in a new strategy in the therapy of withdrawal. "



Notes:

1] A new mechanism explaining the drug
2] These neurons synthesize and release of norepinephrine and serotonin. Two neurotransmitters that contribute to the first to regulate attention, emotions, sleep, dreams and learning and the second at various functions such as temperature, sleep, mood, appetite and pain

original article

Important release about nicotine addiction. - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site and forum* Le site de la cigarette électronique


So it seems that it's not nicotine that some of us miss when we get cravings, it's a combination of chemicals. Raising nicotine intake won't help with that, it'll just raise tolerance or cause illness.

"80% of users of nicotine patches resume smoking" Will this happen with us?

Would it help if we could dose ourselves with harmine?

 

[robw]

at this point I think the other chemicals we are addicted to are most likely gone. I dont have cravings for them when im vaping so the mental effected of blowing smoke has worked at making you not realize what you were addicted to.

The best thing to do is take this as a mind game the big tobacco is playing with us. If we think we are addicted to the paper in the analog then we will be. It is all in your head.

 

[TropicalBob]

It is emphatically NOT in my head and even that suggestion boils my blood!

Please read this extremely important research study again. And try to understand it. The reason e-smoking does not satisfy addiction the way cigarette smoking does is because MAOIs are missing. Our liquid's chemists must work on the formula to achieve something that more closely duplicates the pleasure of a tobacco cigarette.

Gotta stop ... gotta stop ... down blood pressure, down ...

 

[Bellinghamster]

The fact that the other chemicals are gone does not infer that you are no longer addicted to them. That's like telling a 25-year recovering alcoholic that it's OK to partake, since the original alcohol has been gone for 25 years...

Addiction has its mental components, but without a doubt there are very real physical ones as well. This study seems to provide some new insight as to why smoking tobacco is SO addictive [I have friends that kicked ...... and can't stop smoking...]

 

[RainbowznStarz]

nicotine alone is not enough to trigger a state of dependency among smokers. Other compounds in tobacco are needed to reveal the addictive power. This discovery also explains why nicotine substitutes used in smoking cessation are ineffective in the long term.

scientists demonstrated that the combination of nicotine with other products in tobacco, monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs), which leads to this decoupling. Specifically, they show that MAOIs can be addictive properties of nicotine because they nullify the action of natural protection that serotonergic neurons have vis-à-vis the nicotine: the serotonin receptor 5-HT1A . The effect of nicotine on the release of serotonin is so intense that happens in fractions of seconds a "feedback control", which then blocked the release of serotonin. This phenomenon of "retro control" is possible only when the 5-HT1A receptors play their protective role. Without this protection, serotonergic neurons are activated by nicotine, they decouple and trigger the process of addiction.

But after a few weeks of weaning the absence of tobacco (and thus WAMI), permits the return of natural protection. Nicotine alone is not enough as a substitute.

Thank you for posting this Kate. It helps explain in my mind WHY I'm still getting cravings/urges for cigarettes.

 

[ZambucaLu]

All of us here are addicted to some aspect of smoking. Even those who smoke no nic are addicted to at least the ritual of smoking. If not, it would be wiser to just walk away from the whole thing and save themselves a lot of money, wouldn't it?

I'm pretty much beyond the point of trying to figure out what about smoking is addictive. I concentrate now on trying to get as healthy as I can despite the addiction. Maybe someday it will be different.

I sometimes wonder how those who just go cold turkey were ever able to just get over all the addictive aspects of smoking. But they do it....yet it remains a mystery to me. If someone can ever figure out how some are able to do that and others aren't, then I'll really listen.

Lu

 

[TropicalBob]

That's what it also did for me, Rainbow. It was eye-opening, to say the least. Now we KNOW.

 

[xpdx]

That's what it also did for me, Rainbow. It was eye-opening, to say the least. Now we KNOW.

"And knowing is half the battle!"

(GI JOE REFERENCE)

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Vaping certainly only satisfies part of the tobacco cigarette habit. But like most things in life you have to give up something to get something. I consider e-cigs a middle step to quitting, probably an early step. I'm in no hurry, I have till I die to quit right?

 

[Satire]

Our liquid's chemists must work on the formula to achieve something that more closely duplicates the pleasure of a tobacco cigarette.

Working on it already I found a bunch of articles about this type of testing when I was working on the toxicology report. However the only pure MAOIs I have on hand is harmaline and harmine, which are rather safe and temporary (MAO activity returns to normal within 12 hours) inhibitors, but the professional studies say these didn't seem to work on their rats, only the strong (the ones that actually destroy rather than inhibit, taking weeks for the body to re-establish MAO action) MAOIs replicated the self-dosing tendencies of tobacco in their rats. I will see what I can find though. However I will not be publicly posting the results if I succeed (I will PM to anyone interested though), the last thing we need is suppliers to shift efforts from safety issues to "how to make my product more desireable and addictive."

 

[Silver]

That is strange ! I must've been more addicted to the action then as E-vaping has proved to be a totally sufficient replacement of tobacco smoking for me.

And yet... I have not been able to remove the nic from the equation altogether even though I have tried using only Non nic carts. I now alternate between Low (6mg) and Non, but if I go completely to non, I get more cravings. Perhaps that's in the head as well ?

Cheers,
Silver

 

[RjG]

Canadians have an edge on all you guys. At this exact moment, it's -26C outside.
Sitting here at my computer having a 'vape. Do I feel an urge to go outside and have a smoke? Nahhhh. lol

 

[nqhqhz]

If you ARE NOT ON ANY MONOAMINERGIC MEDICATION ESPECIALLY MAOIS (but including SSRIs, tricyclics, wellbutrin (zyban) and chantix, ...., cough syrup etc. etc. etc.) and DO NOT HAVE A HIGH TYROSINE DIET a cup of Passionflower tea in the morning, which contains mild monoamine oxidase inhibitors, is reputed to help with cravings. It has apparently worked for me.

p.s. Satire, regarding harmala alkaloids, as I'm sure you're aware, some of the native americans used to smoke syrian rue seeds instead of brewing it, so they must be active by that route. I would be very interested in hearing your results privately if you find anything interesting, just for knowledge's sake.

 

[SuperStack]

The truth of the matter is that blanket statements either way cannot be made on this issue.

For me, vaping is wholly adequate in satisfying my urges, and in fact, I've experienced the opposite of what's mentioned in that article above. My repulsion to smoking tobacco keeps increasing by the day since switching.

So clearly, this is a very complicated matter that cannot be neatly put into a box and explained. Many here have switched no problemo while others struggle - that's a fact.

One can only assume that differences in individual brain chemistries play a significant role in tobacco addiction.

 

[Silk]

Reading between the lines here. I think this also goes some way towards explaining why smoking is also so popular with those of us with some kind of mental health condition (especially those of us where it is more chemical than phsycological). Not forgetting it wasn't long ago doctors were still suggesting smoking to many of us.

I have been convicinced for a long time that there was much more in regular cigarettes than just the nic and tar that had me reaching for them despite any other form of smoking or NRT I have tried. Also stopping doesn't just put me through withdrawal it does affect my moods in general.

I was/am one HEAVY smoker, I could kick through 80-100 camels in a day without thinking. I tried a pipe for a while, and while I loved the pipe and all that went with it, I found I was STILL craving for a cigarette 5 minutes after finishing a bowl of baccie that would've choked a bar full of Beatniks.

I had the same problems with cigars, and I even had the same trouble wth some of the more organic hand rolling tobaccos, but these I stuck with until I had some form of success in living without tailor mades.

But like other serious addictions, that addiction to whatever 'it' is never goes away. If I found myself 'out' and bought a pack of 'Bros to get me home, the drive to smoke them all was unreal, even though after so long on purer tobacco - made them taste like grandad's socks on the barbie.

I'm having some success with the e-cigs - despite the poor build quality not being able to cope with smokers like myself (and TB and Trog reading the posts here) - I've killed 5 atmoisers in 6 weeks!

But I do emphasise the SOME. The level of nic helps, as does the process and the action. BUT that ain't all there is to it! I know I will be addicted to the X-factor stuff in Tailor mades for the rest of my life, and despite vaping most of the day. I am still hitting half a dozen rollies too.

The only hope I have is, these things do not get banned, the liquid gets some kind of QC, and we eventualy get either reliable products or disposable costing. The fact I am not inhaling tar and other 'hidden nasties' has to be a be a major plus and I think I can learn to live with them, if I am not constantly wondering how long this bit will last, or I just know that I need x bits per month.

I think it will take chemists far beyond the norm to decipher the secret alchemy equations these giants have created - if this level of science and knowledge was applied to other areas we would have some impressive medications available.

 

[Silver]

For me, vaping is wholly adequate in satisfying my urges, and in fact, I've experienced the opposite of what's mentioned in that article above. My repulsion to smoking tobacco keeps increasing by the day since switching.

I soooo agree with this ! I've been E-vaping for almost a year now and off tobacco completely for almost nine months. Tobacco is simply not an option anymore, I find them utterly disgusting now !

Cheers,
Silver

 

[Myk]

Important release about nicotine addiction. - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site and forum* Le site de la cigarette électronique


So it seems that it's not nicotine that some of us miss when we get cravings, it's a combination of chemicals. Raising nicotine intake won't help with that, it'll just raise tolerance or cause illness.

"80% of users of nicotine patches resume smoking" Will this happen with us?

Would it help if we could dose ourselves with harmine?

That has been my experience. Except I'll go one further.
Vaping does not ease panic attacks (may or may not physically cause them, definitely mentally causes them). Pipe smoking does not ease panic attacks. Chewing tobacco does not ease panic attacks. Cigars don't ease panic attacks.
Only cigarettes ease panic attacks. The chemicals in cigarettes seem more psychoactive than other tobaccos.

What I find interesting is all the brain chemicals they list are things that are adjusted by drugs for panic disorder. Sounds like my (and many other's) self-medication is the correct one.

What I find scary is it sounds like they are pushing brain chemical drugs (Zyban, Chantix). I think that is like using a sledge hammer to drive a finishing nail. They push SSRIs for everything under the sun. Now they will have an excuse to push another psychoactive drug for anything they missed with the SSRIs.
If we won't go along to get along they will drug us into going along. I'm all for correctly identifying and prescribing, but I hate this shotgun approach.

I wonder if a 5-HTP supplement would help. Although those are extremely expensive.

 

[Heed]

The truth of the matter is that blanket statements either way cannot be made on this issue.

For me, vaping is wholly adequate in satisfying my urges, and in fact, I've experienced the opposite of what's mentioned in that article above. My repulsion to smoking tobacco keeps increasing by the day since switching.

So clearly, this is a very complicated matter that cannot be neatly put into a box and explained. Many here have switched no problemo while others struggle - that's a fact.

One can only assume that differences in individual brain chemistries play a significant role in tobacco addiction.

Precisely.

Everyone's addiction will be weighted differently in terms of the various aspects of smoking.

Personally, e-smoking covers all of my needs and I have no desire for cigarettes as long as I have an e-cig on hand. However, I can certainly understand that this won't be the case for everyone.

 

[katink]

I think this interesting report covers let's say 'some basics'. It clearly shows that te addiction includes both nicotine ánd other substances (harmine-like). And that is one big asset of this report, I think. And certainly in the beginning of e-smoking we ALL did feel that there was more in the game then just nicotine... a lot for instance (but not all - meaningful fact perhaps?) have had all kinds of (bodily) symptoms after kicking tobacco while not kicking nicotine. So I think that part is clear to us all, and as Bob said: good, very good to KNOW what 'the missing link' (or... at least óne of those??) seems to be!

But... next to those with cravings even while e-smoking, there is also, undeniably, a group (in my thoughts a large group, though it will need investigation to truly get some numbers up on percentages of course) - but thát group, to which I also belong, do (truly!) leave both tobacco AND cravings behind, once they start e-smoking. And I don't think this group should be disregarded or looked upon as 'it's just in the head' (not one bit more then the other way around!).

So let's put these facts next to each other...
- it's not just nicotine
- some continue to crave with e-smoking
- some do NOT crave anymore once they are e-smoking (with nicotine!)
( - and then there is the group that manages to truly kick the habit, and perhaps also the cravings/addiction(?), through which-ever method - I am leaving this group out of this post, because I think that is another field that needs it's own studies but can not be related in a staight line to the groups that dó need nicotine to stay off the tobacco, be it with or without still feeling cravings. )



Questions that arise, and that I feel would need answers to be found:

What can be the difference between the two groups that e-smoke (with cravings still present/without cravings as long as nicotine remains delivered):

- Is the harmine-part a lasting part, or cán that part be 'handled' adequately? Would it, for instance, be possible that the group seemingly not needing/missing this part, would be the same group that had clear symptoms of certain kinds (the 'flu-like symptoms for instance) when leaving tobacco behind? (So would that be a sign, in hind-sight, of thóse people dealing with the harmine-issue, perhaps?) Needs investigation, both in library and through polls/questionlist within the community, to get some first answers here.



If the maoi-part is lasting and can't be dealt with first in this process of leaving tobacco (cig-tobacco, probably) behind us, other questions arise as to: how do those nót feeling cravings 'achieve' this? What are the differences between them and the craving group?
- Can the brain/body itself supply the MAOI-factor? Does the body need certain substances for this to be possible, if the possibility is there but not happening to all?
- Are those without cravings getting their 'MAOI-fix' in some other manner? How? From where, which substances? Are they using certain medicines, foods, drinks that supply them (read the passionflower-tea above as a possible indication for this for instance)...
- Is there a possibility that the answer lies within which (group of?) liquids the different groups are using? Is or are there liquid(s) allready supplying this factor perhaps?




These are (just a few of more) questions that immediately arise with me after reading this report while also taking into account our own community and the divisions within it as to just how e-smoking is helping us.
I think we can find some of these answers ourselves; or at least help others to get these answers while looking at us, with our help. And we can also map out the differences (within our community) a bit better perhaps?



And I do think this once again helps or should help to keep our minds as open as possible concerning the diversity within our community in mány ways... we all need to do a lasting effort to not take our own experience as the only possible experience, leading to 'the only possible' answers or theories (just coming from one, our own, experience). We háve to try to stay as open-minded as possible to acknowledging, and then perhaps studying, the differences related to e-smoking within our community (and then there are the groups nót joining this community also: that probably have their very own part in the story...)

 

[rejoice]

well here is USA our cigarettes have many things added. One is a Amonnia and read this makes nicotine stronger. The cigarette companies add things to our smokes that are not good. I beleive to keep us buying them. In other words- other stuff added ,that we are Addicted too. So we have more than nicotine to deal with.

 

[Satire]

well here is USA our cigarettes have many things added. One is a Ammonia and read this makes nicotine stronger. The cigarette companies add things to our smokes that are not good. I believe to keep us buying them. In other words- other stuff added ,that we are Addicted too. So we have more than nicotine to deal with.

The tobacco is treated with ammonia, it is not in the product you buy at the store. That is like saying .... "has drain cleaner in it," lye or sulfuric acid (used for clearing drains) may be used in the synthesis, but it is not in the final product (unless the chemist is one sloppy, lazy douche).

p.s. Satire, regarding harmala alkaloids, as I'm sure you're aware, some of the native americans used to smoke syrian rue seeds instead of brewing it, so they must be active by that route. I would be very interested in hearing your results privately if you find anything interesting, just for knowledge's sake.

You sound like another erowid junkie =) but yea I have them in both freebase and salt forms, and they do work when smoking (used em mixed with bufoten~ and dmt) but from the lab reports I have found, they are ineffective, here is a quote from a test attempting to re-create the compulsive self-dosing in rats that tobacco causes.
"Among 15 individual or combined MAOIs, including harmane, norharmane, moclobemide, selegiline, pargyline, clorgyline, tranylcypromine and phenelzine, only irreversible (harmaline is a temporary inhibitor of only one type of MAO) inhibitors of both MAO-A and -B (tranylcypromine, phenelzine, and clorgyline + selegiline) allowed a locomotor response to nicotine.....Finally, it was found that, whereas naive rats did not readily self-administer nicotine (10/μg/kg/injection), a robust self-administration of nicotine occurred when animals were pretreated with tranylcypromine (3 mg/kg)." I'll check it out though, the MAOI effects of harmaline are rapid and very short-lived (taking harmaline a couple of hours beforehand will not boost tryptamines the same way taking it at the same time or up to 30 min before does), perhaps the rats didn't have time to develop a habit before the effects wore off. I will try adding it directly to the smoking liquid and see if there is a potency difference.