Will do , thank you everyone for your help! My sons about to go to bed, so time to tinker a bit!
Protank Cotton Rebuild, the way I do it
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i also made a cotton coil on pro 2... just normal 4 + 1 wraps (0.5 + 0.5 at the ends), shows 1.9 ohm...
the cotton i took from supplement containers, which should be food grade i think...
cotton pro 2:
- tastes more than silica (very strong for damp cotton)
- tastes shorter than silica (perhaps 2-3 hours only)
- tougher draw (turned beauty ring upside down now)
- still no gurgling, no flooding
- cant be vaped down so heavily as silica, as it gets too tough then (for me)
- NO NO NO burnt taste
with some coils i have that burnt taste after 4 or more pulls in a row (chain vaping, tank gets hot)...
i thought it comes from the wire sticking out of the silicone splitter/separator of the coil...
either i got the coil now perfectly right, incidentially with the cotton, or its the cotton making the difference...?
but how could silica cause a rubbery burnt taste ?
the cotton i took from supplement containers, which should be food grade i think...
cotton pro 2:
- tastes more than silica (very strong for damp cotton)
- tastes shorter than silica (perhaps 2-3 hours only)
- tougher draw (turned beauty ring upside down now)
- still no gurgling, no flooding
- cant be vaped down so heavily as silica, as it gets too tough then (for me)
- NO NO NO burnt taste
with some coils i have that burnt taste after 4 or more pulls in a row (chain vaping, tank gets hot)...
i thought it comes from the wire sticking out of the silicone splitter/separator of the coil...
either i got the coil now perfectly right, incidentially with the cotton, or its the cotton making the difference...?
but how could silica cause a rubbery burnt taste ?
Some good observation. No flooding says you may have the cotton balance just about right. That's good. That's the toughie.
This thread is about building well localized coils, good tight assemblies. You really have to wind on a standard metric (a size) so you can repeat it. Yea people lose their toothpicks, lol. It happens. But if you find your perfect wick (balance) and it happens to be .07 (perfect for the Protank) then you want to find that build again for sure. But more important building on a standard size lets you precisely set the wick location and keep the installation of the coil intact and the leads short tight and separated. THAT is what FINISHES the burny grommet syndrome. The other possibility is you have a "hanger". Search on this thread for parts of that discussion also on http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/clearomizers/486794-protank-microcoil-discussion.html.
Now that we're talking a bit more advanced…take a quantum jump and try to do a tension wind on a screwdriver. After a few tries, and that's usually all it takes, you will be churning them out in seconds. Once you can they drop in and go microcoil on the first try, anneal, bond and then last weeks sometimes months. You can dry burn 'em, pulse if needed and rewick them in seconds because they're sturdy after burn in. Give it a try. You won't regret it and the cotton will start to taste much better once you have a perfected tensioned contact coil that evenly distributes the heat.
Good luck.
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Little confused by some parts of your post, but were you pulsing the completed coil at all? It's pretty easy to melt the insulator a little bit, which leads to a persistent burnt rubber taste.
I don't do any kind of dry burning on these as I would in a typical rebuildable.
'Tastes shorter than silica' has me rather confused though.
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the cotton has imo a stronger own (damp-cotton-)taste, but it lasts less long than the weaker silica-taste...
im not burning or pulsing anything...
thanks... after 2 hours and a refill i must say my cotton coil isnt good anymore... weak...
perhaps i will try again some time, but will surely follow the interesting thread...
im not burning or pulsing anything...
thanks... after 2 hours and a refill i must say my cotton coil isnt good anymore... weak...
perhaps i will try again some time, but will surely follow the interesting thread...
You absolutely HAVE TO pulse a microcoil especially if it's been tension wound only. The people recommending otherwise simply don't know or understand how Kanthal or a contact micro coils actually work. And I don't expect everyone to know that as the information is spread all over this forum. Thanks diab0lic for pointing out there needed to be a better explanation on this thread.
Kanthal has some unique properties because of its metal composition. When you pulse it, it starts to build an oxidation layer on its surface. It is this that helps avoid the coil from shorting and allows us to build close coils and contact coils in the first place.
Now, with a contact coil it has not and should not be torched first. It should go directly from tension (on the spool) to tension on the screwdriver (mandrel). It needs to build an oxidation layer or it will go hot at points of irregular contact. You may not have to squeeze it with a tweezer if it's good and tight but you absolutely must pulse it until it glows center red then uniform hot (the effect). It may take more than one pulse. Once these coils start to glow from center they are building not just an oxidation layer but if in true adhesion (close and uniform contact). Those adhesion layers are bonding with each other! That's why you don't torch first. You want those layers to be created in contact with each other.
THIS IS WHAT MAKES A TRUE CONTACT MICRO COIL. A coil which has a uniform contact exhibiting the effect is operating at the maximum efficiency that physics will allow (except for imperfections in the coil surface itself).
Unless you have a seriously high or out of diameter turn you will not have a hot leg. If you do, it will be visible and this is the time to fix it. But really, it takes less time to just rewind one.
Not good out of the gate. Dump it. No burny grommets.
Good luck all.
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You absolutely HAVE TO pulse a microcoil especially if it's been tension wound only. The people recommending otherwise simply don't know or understand how Kanthal or a contact micro coils actually work. And I don't expect every to know that as the information is spread all over this forum. Thanks diab0lic for pointing out there needed to be a better explanation on this thread.
Kanthal has some unique properties because of its metal composition. When you pulse it, it starts to build an oxidation layer on its surface. It is this that helps avoid the coil from shorting and allows us to build close coils and contact coils in the first place.
Now, with a contact coil it has not and should not be torched first. It should go directly from tension (on the spool) to tension on the screwdriver (mandrel). It needs to build an oxidation layer or it will go hot at points of irregular contact. You may not have to squeeze it with a tweezer if it's good and tight but you absolutely must pulse it until it glows center red then uniform hot (the effect). It may take more than one pulse. Once these coils start to glow from center they are building not just an oxidation layer but if in true adhesion (close and uniform contact). Those adhesion layers are bonding with each other! That's why you don't torch first. You want those layers to be created in contact with each other.
THIS IS WHAT MAKES A TRUE CONTACT MICRO COIL. A coil which has a uniform contact exhibiting the effect is operating at the maximum efficiency that physics will allow (except for imperfections in the coil surface itself).
Unless you have a seriously high or out of diameter turn you will not have a hot leg. If you do, it will be visible and this is the time to fix it. But really, it takes less time to just rewind one.
Not good out of the gate. Dump it. No burny grommets.
Good luck all.
Very interesting info here...
I must say I'm running about 6 PT coils I rebuilt myself...my method was just wind onto a bit, compress and torch; cool -- then torch and compress again. I have had no issues, upon inspection coils remain tight, performance and vapor is excellent, and I have yet to have one fail on me for any reason. I've only been at it for a few weeks though mind you.
Did I just get lucky a bunch of times or what? The only significant difference I can think of is that I used twisted 32ga instead of single kanthal. The few times I tried to pulse them, I found more often than not I was burning up the insulator and getting a persistent foul taste.
Anyway thanks for the heads up. Next time I go to rebuild a batch of these I will try pulsing again and compare my results. As I say though, can't imagine I could be much happier with them than I am now. I will admit I didn't realize the importance of contact during the building of the oxidization layer though. Very good to know.
Here's the best pic my phone could muster of the one I've been using most. Has yet to leak one drop, give a single dry hit, or gurgle at all. Still on the first wick as well.
Mini pt2 all three holes drilled to 1/16th...much better vapor than I would think possible from this tank.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Mini pt2 all three holes drilled to 1/16th...much better vapor than I would think possible from this tank.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
And this is the problem with 32 gauge, too much resistance per inch to get a 2.5 or lower ohm coil with any amount surface area.
If you want to fill that cup with coil and get a dense vape with 32 gauge wire you will either need to do a non-contact coil or twist up some of that 32 gauge and do about 8 wraps for a similar 2.3'ish ohm coil.
Your coil looks great but doesn't have enough surface area.
If you go the twisted route you will be able to take it up to 15 watts for short bursts or you can vape at 10 watts all day everyday.
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So, been a little absent this week. Work as a 911 dispatcher keeps me fairly busy, without too many days off. The latest coil I built started having issues, so I put it down and went back to stock coils for the last few days.
I'd just about sworn using cotton as a wicking media off. Typically, when I top off my tanks, I rinse the bottom plate and coil under hot running water. I noticed after doing this w/ my cotton coils that they just didn't perform right afterwards, and lasted 24 hours at the most before I got frustrated w/ them and pulled the old cotton out, rewicked the coil.
I had it in my head that maybe cotton was just not for me, so I decided that yesterday when I got paid, I was going to pick some ekowool up from my local vape shop and give that a go. The guy gave me the smallest diameter they have, which is 2mm, and for the life of me couldn't get it into the small coil. Not really surprised, given the coil I made was probably close to 1.6/1.7mm. But that's not the point for this post. Whilst at my local place, I came across something truly magical, and seeing that they had them back in stock, decided to buy one.
The Kanger airflow control valve. Yes, I know they've been mentioned before here and there, but these things truly are magical, and seeing what it did for me in this context, that's why i'm mentioning it. I immediately put my stock coil on it, and immediately noticed how much better the airflow was opened all the way. I also noticed that it practically eliminated the gurgle/juice leaking on the battery/flooding. When I got home this evening, I decided to test it out on one of my cotton rebuilds. To my absolute amazement, this coil which i'd completely written off is performing flawlessly. A phoenix risen from the ashes, if you will... or something. Now, being as inexperienced as I am w/ coil rebuilding, and wicking w/ cotton, I'm in no way saying that the issues I had were caused by anything but operator error, but feeling as good as I do about this coil right now, I felt compelled to share this experience w/ you all. If anyone hasn't tried these adjustable valves on a protank 2, I highly recommend it. As always, YRMV, but it's doing the trick for me, and it's reaffirmed my belief and faith in the reliability of using cotton.
My only regret about the valve? Not buying more of them!
I'd just about sworn using cotton as a wicking media off. Typically, when I top off my tanks, I rinse the bottom plate and coil under hot running water. I noticed after doing this w/ my cotton coils that they just didn't perform right afterwards, and lasted 24 hours at the most before I got frustrated w/ them and pulled the old cotton out, rewicked the coil.
I had it in my head that maybe cotton was just not for me, so I decided that yesterday when I got paid, I was going to pick some ekowool up from my local vape shop and give that a go. The guy gave me the smallest diameter they have, which is 2mm, and for the life of me couldn't get it into the small coil. Not really surprised, given the coil I made was probably close to 1.6/1.7mm. But that's not the point for this post. Whilst at my local place, I came across something truly magical, and seeing that they had them back in stock, decided to buy one.
The Kanger airflow control valve. Yes, I know they've been mentioned before here and there, but these things truly are magical, and seeing what it did for me in this context, that's why i'm mentioning it. I immediately put my stock coil on it, and immediately noticed how much better the airflow was opened all the way. I also noticed that it practically eliminated the gurgle/juice leaking on the battery/flooding. When I got home this evening, I decided to test it out on one of my cotton rebuilds. To my absolute amazement, this coil which i'd completely written off is performing flawlessly. A phoenix risen from the ashes, if you will... or something. Now, being as inexperienced as I am w/ coil rebuilding, and wicking w/ cotton, I'm in no way saying that the issues I had were caused by anything but operator error, but feeling as good as I do about this coil right now, I felt compelled to share this experience w/ you all. If anyone hasn't tried these adjustable valves on a protank 2, I highly recommend it. As always, YRMV, but it's doing the trick for me, and it's reaffirmed my belief and faith in the reliability of using cotton.
My only regret about the valve? Not buying more of them!
Apparently I came into coil rebuilding a bit late. The original thread that gave me the idea was a non contact method, and the OP used 32g. My next purchase of wire will be a larger gauge.
Yeah kanger afc a big improvement. I drilled mine out to 1/16th all around...makes it more actually adjustable. I had the same issue rip trippers mentioned...although air flow was greatly improved, there was little difference between the settings. Opened then up to 1/16th and there's a noticeable difference based on ring settings.
Also I've had great success with twisted 32ga for pt heads. Very easy to do with any drill, pair of pliers, and a paperclip.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Also I've had great success with twisted 32ga for pt heads. Very easy to do with any drill, pair of pliers, and a paperclip.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
How does one twist wire? You talking about using two separate strands of wire together?
take a piece of wire (probably a good couple feet or so is best...twist up a long piece then cut as you need it).
fold it in half.
open a paper clip and chuck it into the end of a drill (make an eyehook type shape)
clamp the two open ends of the wire in a pair of pliers/vice grips (i use vice grips and twist together the ends first)
loop the other end of the wire around the eyelet you made with a paper clip
so you have two ends of a single wire clamped in a pair of pliers, the other end looped around a paper clip which has been chucked into a drill
now hold the wire taught and pull the trigger on the drill. Twist them together, keeping them taught. It can be twisted a lot more than you (or at least I) would initially think. If it starts kinking, you've gone too far, or aren't holding it tight enough.
Personally, I ALWAYS wear safety glasses (thanks Norm Abrams), but have never had the wire break.
Anyway twist the hell out of it, and then pull it off the drill, and cut it into pieces of use to you...4-6" range. Then just use it like regular kanthal.
On second thought....there's probably a video....
Twisted 28 Gauge Micro Coil - YouTube
He uses an allen key here (and 28ga -- no worries, I do this with 32ga all the time)...I prefer the somewhat opened paper clip...it's more of a complete hook so a slip off is almost impossible unless you pull really hard. You can also chuck the wire straight into the drill on most modern drills. Again, I'm always worried about it slipping out and ripping my eyeball open, so I prefer not to do this.
This should help you get the resistance down with the wire you have, and allow you to have a pretty full cup and good surface area. I use 8-10 wraps normally.
To twist 32 pull about 12 inches or so of wire, double it over something heavy you can dangle from the wire and spin freely in the air until wire is tight. I do it this way because my drill is in storage and I can't find it, if you have a drill then I would definitely use that.
Kanger Protank Aero Airflow Base
Hey, I wouldn't steer you wrong Mr. B.
Never wash cotton after you install it on an atty! Crickey.
I'm happy to see your building development is fast and furious.
Breid do hold on to that .07"/1.788mm or closest to 1.8mm dimension for the KPT. It's the silver chalice, the rock dead center of wicking for the Protank. Out of that max. slot dimension and you're hanging the coil without a good foothold. Always localize on the bottom of the slot and rock solid. I love Eko and 5/64" is a great wind dim for just about any atty but you have to hang the coil you produce (then wick it on top of that!). It needs to be set as stable and pristine until you pulse it. You simply will not see the adhesion of one alimuna oxide layer to another, one coil turn to another, if they are not as tightly touching as possible. Imagine two planks of painted drywall drying alone. Now imagine imagine pressing them together with the paint wet. Which pair's gonna stick together like glue for ya? Anything less, decreased efficiency and increased short potential. Don't manhandle a contact micro coil before you got there or you think you have a microcoil. The one that shows you the effect the first time you pulse the bare coil. Yeah, that one. Then...cotton or most anything else is bliss.
It takes seconds to wind another coil. Minutes or hours playin' with it during the life of the coil, the other way. Think about it.
You'll thank me.
There are ways to thread Ekowool into ~1.5-1.8mm relatively easily. Come on fella's be creative. The trick and I'll clue ya, is find ways to compress the wick media before you insert it. I have three techniques. Not going to publish them here right now. But I just told ya how it's done. Don't compress Eko or any other media by winding on it (the fibers matt and form internal damns) or folding it three times and running it thru 2mm. You're going to choke the flow. Here's the clue it's hollow. Find the means to compress it lightly below the dimension of the coil (1.8mm).
And that's what I've tried to make the topic address Building for KPT is about marrying the appropriate wick media to coil dimension for your taste and temperature (watt/res) target. Ya'll smart folks. Figure that out.
Now listen up, all'a ay's
There is a wick media with astonishing flow rate, clean, restorable (torching) that threads amazingly easy into 1/16-.07" on a Kanger. I've only written about a million words on it for this forum. I urge you a all to try it. It's Nextel XC-132 ceramic braided insulation. There's one vendor properly preparing it in the US. A second I am waiting on confirmation from. I've been testing this media for six months really outstanding results especially for flavor. But it's the cleanest, most durable and maintenance free wick available bar none. Will run typically 10 days or more for moderately dense or pigmented juices if you employ my wick blow out routine when it gets sluggish (like after heavy chaining) or at tank top-off's. I routinely demonstrate this technique at B&M's and to users here in S FL to amazed and consistent results for them!
These three things I describe appropriate build symmetry, compatible wick media-to-coil selection (be it Eko or Nextel) and a simple maintenance trick will make your Protank's a whole notha universe. Add the Aero and you've got an outstanding tank that provides nuances often lost on more sophisticated atty's. And one thing in particular we all like the KPT does a damned good job emulating the draw and vapor feel of an analog. Come on, let's be honest why we can't chuck 'em. You hate 'em don'tcha!? And it don't aspire to no damn 40bucks (where the hell do they get the nerve?).
So there ya have it. That's my story and I'm stickin to it.
Listen to emt. Go get that Aero base. Just do it!
Have at it all and good luck!
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Nope, and you never have. This past Friday being payday is when the opportunity to get new wicking materials opened up for me, and since Nextel isn't available at the local place I grabbed the eko. I have been doing some reading on the nextel, and had some concerns about how thoroughly heated it comes from them, removing any impurities. Wanted to talk to you about that actually, Mac. I've been using the blow out method you've detailed w/ my stock coil and can see a dramatic difference. Shame we can't do it w/ cotton, but regardless, not like making a new cotton wick is tedious.
I haven't made any new coils over the past few days, just came off a 5 day stretch at work.
Breid you just inspire me to help as you really roll with it. Which brings me to this and I know I promised to document it when I explained it to ya. I just don't have time I'm afraid to do this or I'd have made a hundred videos by now. But I'll give you a tip on Eko and just about how to wick any media into it's own diameter, i.e. .7 inches. Mind you typically Eko is a bit thicker than it's designated Ø so 1.788mm is just perfect. Still a hard thread. This is what drove me batsh!t when I started the first few weeks. Why are people doing this silly fly fishin' hand-wind when it's gonna go craz short. Well, ya can't thread the sh!!t That's one for openers. So I can't blame people for wanting to get a vape on. But stuck with cotton because it's the only thing you can thread? Hey man, no way. Cotton's good and good for starters but it's a PIA. And a lot of us can't handle the taste. Often you don't even know it 'till you try somethin' else. So look here's the keyword unlock cellophane. Bookmark this now boys and girls or be sayin'...didn't I read that somewhere?"
Cut a small square of cello and fold the end of your wick material (don't cut any off) into the center of the square. The tip of the wick a half-inch or so from the edge of the square. Squeeze the wick firmly and press all the air out of the folded square. With a very flat straight edge metal or plastic ruler (thin plastic book markers are a good example, thin transparent rulers, another) hold the wick down firmly and edge underneath the wick tightly from end-to-end while you press in with the straight edge. Great, you have now compressed the wick almost 50%. Holding the wick with fingertips cut away about 3/4 of the cellophane from the rectangle. Now, roll a cigarette with it. The real skinny kind (if you get my meanin'). The result should be very well be almost half the Ø you started with. Oh yea, that extra strip of cello at the end, cut it on the bias. You now have a needle. A little heat (not flame) and you can harden it. Pull that through your coil and beyond, remove the cello, pull the wick back the other way as needed and you've got your set at the correct diameter for that wick!
Concratz! You now possess a thread-able wick. Perhaps for the first time in your vapin' career. Use it wisely. This technology is a threat to the powers that be who skulk and plot on how to hide their loose winds selling you ever more pricey multi-coil clearo's promising your vape will improve!
You just got the improvement. Vape on!
Good luck all.
Wait, the only thing I'm aware of that cellophane is commonly used for anymore is the outer wrapper on... Packs of "traditional cigarettes".
Is the above-described technique a ploy to get us back to buying packs of smokes?
Is the above-described technique a ploy to get us back to buying packs of smokes?
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