Batteries and Safety

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VaporMadness

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I've been trying to get a handle on how "safe" battery mods are given the type of failure modes that various battery chemistry exhibit (some of which are explosive!!!). I found some good info about Lithium Manganese (LiMn chemistry like that used in the AW IMR batts) here... GM Battery

LiMn li-ion cells are a new breed of safe chemistry cell, available commercially as loose cells only in 16340 (RCR123) size from AW, but coming soon in 18650 size, with 18650 and 26670 sizes already available to li-ion powered tool manufactures. (they can be torn down to get at the cells, which many of us have done) This cell chemistry is similar to LiCo in that it shares the same charging requirements and has the same nominal voltage rating of 3.7V. The similarities end there. I would consider these cells to be a notch safer than the LiCo cells based purely on chemistry, as they can not generate their own oxygen during an out-gassing and therefor are incapable of accelerating their own burn in an oxygen deprived environment. (regular lithium CR123s and LiCo chemistry both share this trait of fueling their own fire when something does go wrong, with the potential to become a full blown metal fire). LiMn chemistry cells are good for responsible adult users who know to shut the light off before the battery is over-discharged, as over-discharge will reduce the cycle life of these cells. While this cell chemistry is safer, I would not consider it to be an ideal option for use in a flashlight that is given to a child to play with for fear that the cells may be ruined if the flashlight is left "on" and unattended to completely deplete the cells. Energy density on LiMn cells is about 30% less than LiCo cells, however, in the smaller RCR123 size, since they do not have a PCB consuming a large piece of real-estate (as compared with the overall size of the cell) these cells actually come surprisingly closer to the capacity of the protected RCR123 LiCo cells than do the larger LiMn cells when compared against equivalent size LiCo cells.

LiFeP04 li-ion cells are also a relatively new breed of safe chemistry cell. Commercially they are popping up in many sizes, with RCR123s being the most popular. These are a very safe cell, but suffer from the problem of not being nearly as tolerant to over-discharge as a NIMH cell would be. Since these are "safe chemistry" cells, they, Like LiMn cells, are not sold with PCB circuits to prevent over-discharge. They really do require the user to actively participate in the prevention of over-discharge to prolong the cycle life of the cells, just like the LiMn cells. I would be perfectly comfortable handing a child a light with these cells in it as far as safety is concerned, but the issue of whether or not the cells would survive the attempts to keep the light on long after the battery has gone dead is another issue all-together. As for energy density, combine these cells lower nominal voltage rating (3.2V) with roughly HALF the AH storage as compared with LiCo cells, and these have only about 1/3rd (give or take) the energy density as compared with CR123 primaries or LiCo cells.

It seems that the LiMn cells have slightly higher energy density than LiFePo4 and do not evolve o2 from the oxide chemistry of the Cobalt and others, they do not feed their own destruction.

After reading thru what I've read. I think the ONLY type of batt I'd be comfortable with using with a mod are these LiMn batteries. I expect to be carrying a MOD almost all of the time, 24 x 7 365 days a year. Sooner or later... I can expect a battery to fail.
 

Iken

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Isn't that the truth! Thank you for this great post Mr Madness!
Honestly though, the safety of batteries relies on the cooperative support of the user. I would judge the post above to be meant for people that are brand new to the art of excessive battery use. I personally used Cr2 batteries and their unprotected chargers from April of last year towards November/December with only one mishap. A piece of the packaging from the battery came off. When I had several in my pocket enclosed, one met contact to the bare side of the battery and instantaneously heated up to extreme temperatures. Now that was a sight! Ahh The Chicken dance was reinvented that faithful day. :D
 

Drozd

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I've actually been working on putting together a quite detailed discourse on batteries, their efficiency, and safety...
With a focus on how to figure out the Max Drain rate of batteries and how to figure out the amp draw of different atties at different voltages and then relate that to wattage produced at that voltage with that atty as well...
Just to see what batteries we can use without overstressing the batteries past their max drain rates...
The preliminary results of the math is that there's just a handful of batteries that can handle any atty we throw at them without going into an overstressed over max drain rate state...
Those are:
for 3.7V... just about any 3.7V 18650 or the 3.7V AW 16340 IMR highdrain LiMN
for 6V....the AW 3V LiFePo4 16340 size (500mAh) (x2)
for 7.4V...again the 3.7V AW 16340 IMR highdrain LiMN (x2)

and that's it... everything else depending on which atty used and at which voltage can be overstressed..

Then I'm going on to show how you can use the amp draw versus the max drain rate of the batteries to get a rough idea of just how long the batteries will last (# of button presses) given an average of x second button presses...

EDIT: Here's the first quarter of that...a basic atty vs Voltage Amp draw table... and a basic wattage table.....#s in bold correlate to that 8-10W so called "sweet spot"
Chart2.jpg


max drain rate of your batteries is figured by their mAh rating * their C rating /1000...it should be more than the amp draw for your atty/voltage combination in the table...
(ultrafire C rating is 1.5C, AW C rating is 2C, AW C rating for 16340 is 8C, AW C raitng for 18650 is 10C, AW C raitng for their LiFePo4 is also 10C, tenergy lifepo is max drain rate <.55A, all other Li-Ion can be assumed to have a C raitng of 1 unless otherwise noted)
 
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VaporMadness

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EDIT: Here's the first quarter of that...a basic atty vs Voltage Amp draw table... and a basic wattage table.....#s in bold correlate to that 8-10W so called "sweet spot" ...

Thanx for assembling this data. I look forward to seeing your specific findings on the batteries when you post them.

And I'm glad the AW 16340 IMRs pass your tests :)
 

Drozd

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wow nice Draw table.... can you also add in AW 14500 batteries? I'm rather curious about those on LR 510 atties.

well looking at that amp draw table a 1.5Ω atty at 3.7V would be an amp draw of 2.47A

now the AW 14500..
750mAh*2C/1000= 1.5A max drain rate...

See what I mean...amp draw exceeds max drain rate...
 

Drozd

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thanks.... thats not good... I think its going to be very hard to find batteries that will allow such abuse. I'm going to have to start looking for some better batteries.
Isaac said that there are AW high drain LiMN 14500s in the works...so when those come out those should take care of that..

but until that point the only things available that can truely handle the abuse we put em through are in the 18650 size
2 different 3V LiFePo4 in the CR123a size
and the LiMN high drain in the CR123a size

That's not to say that there arent other protected batteries that wont work....just that we're overstressing them and they aren't going to hold up to nearly as many charges as the manufacturers say they can...so we should pitch and replace them more frequently, expecially if they start acting "funny"..
 

Switched

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Isaac and I exchanged a conversation in IkenVape Help Center - Page 3 - E-Cigarette Forum starting at post #111.

I had posted a response to someone else's post and on as after thought, thought it didn't belong and hence deleted my post. In the mean time Isaac was responding. So we resumed were my deleted post left off.

The conversation stemed from this Battery/charger concerns - e-Smokers-forum.com · e-Cigarette and e-Smoking discussions particular thread.

The issue has been resolved. In order for folks to be able to access this particular info, I thought it to be more appropriate posted here under "batteries and safety" rather than have it buried in a thread that doesn't really deal with this particular matter. ECF is a big site and we often can't seem to find important information wrt this or that, that we have read.

Although these two PDF links do not address "my" battery perse, they have apeased my suspicions wrt using the battery and charger combo.

3.0V Li-ion RCR123A rechargeable battery
3.0v Li-ion battery charger

Although I believe and always endorse buying the vendors recommended batteries for his/her particular mod, sometimes they are simply out of stock, and we need to seek elsewhere. Using the data provided from the Ikenvape site, I purchased what I thought to be a good alternative (they are). What I wasn't expecting is to see a 3.0V battery come off the charger, as this is not the norm. You would normally purchase a charger with a 3.6V output for 3.0V batts, and a 4.2V output for 3.7V batts.

So when a manufacturer changes the norm, we are often left confused, as in my case. I am not embarrassed in the least sharing this information with anyone. On the contrary, I wish more folks would, as we can all educate ourselves a little more. This vaping business is growing in leaps and bounds, and we need to keep up with all the innovations demanded by the community. I invite everyone to share their fortunes and mis-fortunes alike so we can all grow and porper together in a safe and pleasurable manner.
 

Thyestean

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Oct 29, 2009
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Any update for the Imr 14500's?:2cool:

Yes maa'm!
4 days ago on the 25th, he said in about 10 days, they'll be completed :D

Nice. If the 16340 HD ones, that I just placed an order for, make as big a difference as I'm told then I'm sure I'll be looking to grab a couple 14500 ones too so it will be nice to be able to get them from you.
 

WitchWay

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Ok curiousity questions for the battery experts... this is pertaining to the AW 10440 batteries. Some are marked LIR and some are marked ICR. What does the LIR and ICR stand for? There doesn't seem to be any difference in the batteries at all, but I was just curious what the letters mean if anything.


Thanks in advance!!! Happy Vaping!!!
 

VaporMadness

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Ok curiousity questions for the battery experts... this is pertaining to the AW 10440 batteries. Some are marked LIR and some are marked ICR. What does the LIR and ICR stand for? There doesn't seem to be any difference in the batteries at all, but I was just curious what the letters mean if anything.


Thanks in advance!!! Happy Vaping!!!

"ICR" definitely refers to the cobalt oxide chemistry, see the battery university. I've think I've seen "LIR" used as a generic acronym for "Lithium-Ion rechargeable" without really indicating a particular chemistry?

From... What does IMR stand for/mean? - CandlePowerForums
It's a code used by the battery manufacturers for designating different kinds of lithium ion cell.

As far as I can understand it (doubtless someone can correct the details if they are wrong), it goes like this:

I = lithium ion
C/M/F = cobalt/manganese/iron phosphate chemistry
R = rechargeable(?)

Therefore,

ICR 18650 = lithium cobalt oxide (traditional) cylindrical cell
IMR 18650 = lithium manganese oxide cylindrical cell
IFR 18650 = lithium iron phosphate cylindrical cell

all of which are rechargeable lithium ion cells 18 mm diameter by 65 mm long, and each of which has different voltages and electrical properties.
 
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