New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Use temp control and dont go above 450Fish if you want to minimize exposure.

OK, they published this data publicly now about the spike of formaldehyde and Acetaldehyde (both carcinogens) spiking way up past safe levels starting around 470F-480F.

Temperature Control is IMPORTANT folks!

Start about 6 minutes in:


Turns out VG is worse than PG with regards to formaldehyde:

Significant amounts of toxic carbonyl compounds can be created when common e-liquid solvents—i.e., PG, GL, or their mixture—are heated at high temperature, either intentionally by users to get more aerosol or accidently due to overheating. GL produced much more formaldehyde than PG under our testing conditions

A Device-Independent Evaluation of Carbonyl Emissions from Heated Electronic Cigarette Solvents


Even tootle puffers at 10W are reaching temps above 470F

This is PG, carcinogen level starts rising around 480F

This is VG, carcinogens start rising around 410F

This is our common 50/50 pg/vg mix, carcinogens start rising at around 470F

The rise in carcinogens above 470F exceeds what is available in regular cigarettes.

Below 470 the levels are negligible.

ETA:
***********************************************
This thread stirred a lot of controversy. In an attempt to actually prove, based on "sound" technique, what was going on inside our attys, a series of tests were performed. Here is a list of links you might find interesting:

Formaldehyde Levels in a real atty under real conditions.
Best Practices to avoid high temps on VV/VW mods.
VV & VW Mod Temperature Variables
Capillary action of silica vs rayon
Actual temperatures inside a Vivi Nova on both VV and VW devices.
Actual temperature inside VW Tootle Puffer rig.
Juice Boiling Point and Vaping Temperatures
Real Life temp measurements inside a 2016 era atty

 

[mikepetro]

The old tootle puffers CE4s are not safe at any power level.

Our own Dr. @Kurt who also attended:

Start watching about 20 minutes into it:

 

[r77r7r]

Is Evolve going to regulate their boards now?

 

[Aal_]

bummer ...

 

[Bonskibon]

Thank you for posting this information. I tried watching it yesterday and not ashamed to admit that it's pretty much over my head and having difficulty understanding it. I don't use TC mode so not sure if that has me dumbed down to what they are talking about.

 

[Fozzy71]

Thank you for posting this information. I tried watching it yesterday and not ashamed to admit that it's pretty much over my head and having difficulty understanding it. I don't use TC mode so not sure if that has me dumbed down to what they are talking about.

The take away from this is that if you don't use TC mode you should probably consider using it, and keep your temp setting as low as you can while still delivering a vape you enjoy and that keeps you from smoking analogs. Depending on the device/tank/build I have always vaped between 400 and 460.

 

[Bonskibon]

The take away from this is that if you don't use TC mode you should probably consider using it, and keep your temp setting as low as you can while still delivering a vape you enjoy and that keeps you from smoking analogs. Depending on the device/tank/build I have always vaped between 400 and 460.

I use kanthal wire so how should I use TC mode with that? I use 28g with 8 wraps on 2.5 jig that gives me 1.6 ohms that I vape at 12w.

 

[Konstantinos Kazantzoglou]

So the only solution is to make SS-316 coils since ni-200 and Titanium are not risk free wires...

 

[Fozzy71]

I use kanthal wire so how should I use TC mode with that? I use 28g with 8 wraps on 2.5 jig that gives me 1.6 ohms that I vape at 12w.

The only mods I know of that can do TC with Kanthal are the Hohm Tech mods. I have 4 of the G2's but haven't tried Kanthal on them yet. I am currently using SS316 in all 5 of my mods that are in daily rotation.

 

[Bonskibon]

Well I guess if that's the case than no one should use mechs than. This is all so confusing.

 

[mikepetro]

Is Evolve going to regulate their boards now?

Evolv has always regulated their boards. The current generation has a limit of 600F which still is unsafe according to that data. It is up to the User to dial in safe settings.

 

[mikepetro]

I use kanthal wire so how should I use TC mode with that? I use 28g with 8 wraps on 2.5 jig that gives me 1.6 ohms that I vape at 12w.

There is only one vendor that I know of (Hohm Wrecker) who sells Mods that will Temp Control kanthal. Most TC mods you simply cant use kanthal if you want temp control.

 

[mikepetro]

BTW, most of this information came out of:

Committee on the Review of the Health Effects of Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems (ENDS): An Information-Gathering Workshop
2/21/17 - Welcome : Health and Medicine Division

Click the PLUS buttons to see the collection of about 20 videos:

 

[Bonskibon]

There is only one vendor that I know of (Hohm Wrecker) who sells Mods that will Temp Control kanthal. Most TC mods you simply cant use kanthal if you want temp control.

I don't want to use TC mode, but I'm getting the feeling that I have to if I want to be safe and stay away from kantal altogether.

 

[mikepetro]

The take away from this is that if you don't use TC mode you should probably consider using it, and keep your temp setting as low as you can while still delivering a vape you enjoy and that keeps you from smoking analogs. Depending on the device/tank/build I have always vaped between 400 and 460.

The best way I heard it put was like this:

the bottom line is you need to know the temperature to be in control of what's going on in there. You don't cook, or bake, based on how much smoke comes off the stove, do you?

 

[Bonskibon]

I honesty don't think my kantal coil is getting dangerously hot the way I vape, but want to be sure so will be researching that out.

 

[mikepetro]

So the only solution is to make SS-316 coils since ni-200 and Titanium are not risk free wires...

To my knowledge, the hazards associated with those wires are also temp related. Bad stuff doesnt start happening until you get well above the temps we are talking about here.

 

[mikepetro]

Well I guess if that's the case than no one should use mechs than. This is all so confusing.

Mechs, particularly with a fresh battery, are probably one of the riskier devices. You simply dont have any control over what temps you are hitting.

 

[Caihlen]

Essentially what you are presenting is data that says vaping is not safe and produces carcinogens at temperatures above 450 or so that exceed the carcinogens produced by tobacco.

 

[Zakillah]

Well I guess if that's the case than no one should use mechs than. This is all so confusing.

Everybody relax.
Its not like your setup turns into a Carbonyl-spitting monster even if you don't use TC. As long as there is enough liquid on the wick and enough airflow, it cools down on itself without TC anyway.
I have not yet seen a serious analysis (one that does not dry burn the hell out of the atty) that detects more then trace amounts of Form/Acetaldehyde and I work in this field.