Dekang DEG Testing Pool: Looking for suppliers to share cost with

[syntaxevasion]

I shopped around and found a lab that can test for DEG to 1 part per million for about 700 dollars (I think it's $698)

We use Dekang liquids like I'm sure many of you do, and plan on using a combination of our flavors for the sample.

Any suppliers that would like to participate in the cost will receive a copy of the results.

Post them on your page, send out a newsletter, etc.

Please let me know if you are interested, contact me via PM or skype

Thanks,
Ben

 

[TnA]

I'm a small fish and just starting up, but I'd be happy to chip in.

But aren't you afraid it's just going to meet the same wall of "but it hasn't been peer-reviewed" comments/statements?

 

[quovadis]

Ask bloody Dekang to pay !!

 

[syntaxevasion]

Don't see that happening...

Hey Tammy, would your company be willing to pay for a United States lab to test for diethylene glycol.. It's only 697 dollars for a sample and we could send the results to customers.
[2:05:39 AM] Ben: Ask your manager, I'm curious
[2:05:50 AM] Ben: I have lots of vendors that are interested in this
[2:05:54 AM] Ben: all use your liquids
[2:06:01 AM] Ben: for liquid test
[2:06:44 AM] Tammy ^_^: but our liquids don't contain DEG
[2:07:05 AM] Ben: Right, but lots of people will only trust a lab test if we have it here
[2:07:26 AM] Ben: then once it's tested, we'll send you the result so you can use it for advertising
[2:07:46 AM] Ben: it's not fair, but lots of americans don't trust china until they see USA testing
[2:07:56 AM] Ben: so, you think your boss will agree?
[2:08:25 AM] Tammy ^_^: you mean we send a liquid sample to test and if the test report says no DEG. then we can advertise
[2:08:27 AM] Tammy ^_^: ?
[2:09:06 AM] Ben: I have lots of your liquid here, I could send the sample to the lab. .Your company could pay for it and I'd give the test to you.. You could post it on your website as proof
[2:09:13 AM] Ben: gain more trust
[2:10:03 AM] Tammy ^_^: ok, let me talk to the manager
[2:11:54 AM] Tammy ^_^: the manager said we did it
[2:12:02 AM] Tammy ^_^: njoy did for us
[2:12:11 AM] Ben: Well where is it?
[2:12:19 AM] Tammy ^_^: in njoy
[2:12:30 AM] Ben: In njoy.. How does that help you, or all your other customers?
[2:12:31 AM] Tammy ^_^: Njoy pay much to test it
[2:13:13 AM] Ben: talking about testing your liquids, will get it done.. then you can post the results on your site
[2:13:23 AM] Ben: that would look very good for your company, I think!
[2:14:24 AM] Tammy ^_^: the manager said we did it
[2:14:34 AM] Tammy ^_^: and if the american lab do it
[2:14:35 AM] Ben: well could you send me a link or a copy?
[2:14:41 AM] Ben: i would like to see
[2:18:00 AM] Tammy ^_^: have finished
Tammy ^_^
[2:18:42 AM] Tammy ^_^: Tammy ^_^ 发送了文件 "Response-to-the-FDA-Summary[1].pdf" 给此会话中的成员
[2:18:46 AM] Tammy ^_^: look at this
[2:18:51 AM] Tammy ^_^: it's the beginning
[2:18:51 AM] Ben: k
[2:19:02 AM] Tammy ^_^: the left will be done
[2:21:20 AM] Ben: doesn't say anything about Boge or Dekang
[2:21:24 AM] Ben:
[2:21:39 AM] Tammy ^_^: it's the begging
[2:22:30 AM] Ben: Nor does it say anyting about liquid, just cartridge.. Good report though
[2:23:26 AM] Tammy ^_^: others is being in process


ETC ETC.. You can go round and round but you'll just get different lines. If I spent 100k with them a month I might expect to get some straight and useful answers, but I don't think any of us do that.

Ben

 

[spradling]

I'm up for it, as long as we're a bunch and I don't have to pay so much lol.

I'll send you an email.

You should post this in the suppliers private forum.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

If you want to put your money to good use, you will test the second hand vapor. And possibly the first hand vapor.

If the intended use of the liquid is to turn it into a vapor, then what is in the liquid is really secondary concern. It is what is inhaled and then exhaled.

You would need to do an exhaustive test looking for all of the typical by-products of second hand smoke including the nicotine content in the vapor both inhaled and exhaled.

Could you get a quote for that?

 

[Vaporista]

I shopped around and found a lab that can test for DEG to 1 part per million for about 700 dollars (I think it's $698)

We use Dekang liquids like I'm sure many of you do, and plan on using a combination of our flavors for the sample.

Any suppliers that would like to participate in the cost will receive a copy of the results.

Post them on your page, send out a newsletter, etc.

Please let me know if you are interested, contact me via PM or skype

Thanks,
Ben

What is $700 to a US Distributor who is making, say over $xx K Profit per year?
I mean seriously folks. Think about it. Maybe you can all get a sample of a different flavour tested and compare the results.

 

[kinabaloo]

If you want to put your money to good use, you will test the second hand vapor. And possibly the first hand vapor.

If the intended use of the liquid is to turn it into a vapor, then what is in the liquid is really secondary concern. It is what is inhaled and then exhaled.

You would need to do an exhaustive test looking for all of the typical by-products of second hand smoke including the nicotine content in the vapor both inhaled and exhaled.

Could you get a quote for that?

Agree, have been saying this for some time. Ultimately, it's what's in the vapor that matters (and quite possibly not such good news; but hopefully not too bad either; expect a dozen nasties, but in very small amounts). A comprehensive analysis of everything in the vapor has never been done, afaik. It would be a lot more expensive.

But it also makes sense to reassure the majority of consumers that DeKang liquid is good. And although it makes sense for DeKang to pay, it also would look best to consumers if it not paid by DeKang.

20 distributors paying $50 each is not too bad. Best check with the tester how many samples can be done for the price - to cover a range of strengths and flavored / unflavored.

 

[syntaxevasion]

What is $700 to a US Distributor who is making, say over $xx K Profit per year?
I mean seriously folks. Think about it. Maybe you can all get a sample of a different flavour tested and compare the results.

We're submitting multiple samples for this.. The DEG test, while not comprehensive by any means, is a good starting point to mitigate concerns stemming from the FDA's detection of DEG in a cartridge they tested.

We're combining multiple liquids for the sample...

 

[syntaxevasion]

I imagine the vaporized liquid would be fairly similar in composition to the liquid itself. Boil water and you get steam...

--Though I did read something about the possibility of TSNAs being poorly volatilized, therefore suggesting the possibility that the vapor may contain less bad stuff than the liquid.

I'm checking into a more comprehensive screening as well, TSNA etc

 

[kinabaloo]

I imagine the vaporized liquid would be fairly similar in composition to the liquid itself. Boil water and you get steam...

--Though I did read something about the possibility of TSNAs being poorly volatilized, therefore suggesting the possibility that the vapor may contain less bad stuff than the liquid.

I'm checking into a more comprehensive screening as well, TSNA etc

It's possible TSNAs might be reduced, really don't know for sure. But the results on vapor show a wide range of chemicals present, likely not all explainable by creation of the testing equipment.

E-liquid is not water, there will be products of nicotine breakdown and oxidation, and heat degradation of any dry residues on the atty coil, for a start. The devil is in the dose though; if very small quantities, no worries; but won't be easy to win that argument.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

I imagine the vaporized liquid would be fairly similar in composition to the liquid itself. Boil water and you get steam...

--Though I did read something about the possibility of TSNAs being poorly volatilized, therefore suggesting the possibility that the vapor may contain less bad stuff than the liquid.

I'm checking into a more comprehensive screening as well, TSNA etc

A great read on vaporization... the26thD did a great job of defining vaporization... The differences between Vaporization and Combustion

And I know this reference is Wikipedia... BUT there is some interesting info in it: Vaporization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I am still to look into this more, but what is interesting is that there are two different types of vaporization: boiling and evaporation. I am leaning more towards evaporation than boiling as the boiling point of PG according to the EPA is

Boiling Point: 188 degrees C at 760 mm Hg

Don't our vaporizers act within 40-65 degrees based on the FDA's findings? So if we use that, then we aren't boiling the PG, but evaporating it.

Also, with TSNA's, it is also my understanding that the hotter the burn, the higher the toxicity of the nitrosamine. So for instance an example: A piece of well cooked meat would carry a higher carcinogen level than a piece of medium well cooked meat.

So all of this would lead me to believe that what's in the bottle is not necessarily what you would find in the first hand vapor and *maybe* not what you would find in the second hand vapor, based on what is absorbed by the user.

 

[kinabaloo]

A great read on vaporization... the26thD did a great job of defining vaporization... The differences between Vaporization and Combustion

And I know this reference is Wikipedia... BUT there is some interesting info in it: Vaporization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I am still to look into this more, but what is interesting is that there are two different types of vaporization: boiling and evaporation. I am leaning more towards evaporation than boiling as the boiling point of PG according to the EPA is

Boiling Point: 188 degrees C at 760 mm Hg

Don't our vaporizers act within 40-65 degrees based on the FDA's findings? So if we use that, then we aren't boiling the PG, but evaporating it.

Also, with TSNA's, it is also my understanding that the hotter the burn, the higher the toxicity of the nitrosamine. So for instance an example: A piece of well cooked meat would carry a higher carcinogen level than a piece of medium well cooked meat.

So all of this would lead me to believe that what's in the bottle is not necessarily what you would find in the first hand vapor and *maybe* not what you would find in the second hand vapor, based on what is absorbed by the user.

Vaporisation (boiling) is, more or less, fast evaporation (energy applied to raise all the liquid to a temperature where it will change phase to become a gas.

The situation in the atomiser is complex. But roughly speaking the boiling point of e-liquid is lower than that of PG or nicotine because it is a mixture in which water (and perhaps ethanol) lowers the combined bp value greatly although small in amount in the mixture. Boiling of mixtures however is not quite so simple as having a single bp; add that the temp is not constant and liquid is arriving at the heater coil erratically and one can expect some 'super-heating'. Plus the whole process is happening in air; and the difference in behaviour of chemicals in the gas phase.

Browning in cooking is a slow form of decomposition (plus oxidation) that is akin to a slow combustion.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Vaporisation (boiling) is, more or less, fast evaporation (energy applied to raise all the liquid to a temperature where it will change phase to become a gas.

The situation in the atomiser is complex. But roughly speaking the boiling point of e-liquid is lower than that of PG or nicotine because it is a mixture in which water (and perhaps ethanol) lowers the combined bp value greatly although small in amount in the mixture. Boiling of mixtures however is not quite so simple as having a single bp; add that the temp is not constant and liquid is arriving at the heater coil erratically and one can expect some 'super-heating'. Plus the whole process is happening in air; and the difference in behaviour of chemicals in the gas phase.

Browning in cooking is a slow form of decomposition (plus oxidation) that is akin to a slow combustion.

This is all so fascinating...

With the atomizer being so complex as you have noted... All the more reason that any studies going forward should include the liquid, the 1st hand vapor and the 2nd hand vapor, and really would have to be done on all types of hardware.

So Syntax... if you are going to move forward on this... if you could, get quotes to include 1st and 2nd hand vapor as well as the liquid AND I would also suppose that the atomizer chosen to vaporize the liquid would have a bearing on results?

 

[kinabaloo]

Any test specific to DeKang should be done on just the liquid, as has been done by a few brands; that's only fair.

Liquid suppliers are not likely to want to have the vapor analysed; that would best be done by another body because it would be basic research.

 

[firhill]

What is $700 to a US Distributor who is making, say over $xx K Profit per year?
I mean seriously folks. Think about it. Maybe you can all get a sample of a different flavour tested and compare the results.

Seriously.....I don't think there are any U.S. distributors that use Dekang as a base. Maybe you can post all the ones you know of. Thanks.

 

[hizen]

We're submitting multiple samples for this.. The DEG test, while not comprehensive by any means, is a good starting point to mitigate concerns stemming from the FDA's detection of DEG in a cartridge they tested.

We're combining multiple liquids for the sample...

My two cents but I think you should simply get the Dekang products tested on their own merits direct from the factory so to speak. If you start combining/mixing them up it might cause problems trying to pinpoint or isolate any negatives that are found. I use Dekang and would be interested in participating in this if it's done right.

 

[jigtg]

Vaporisation (boiling) is, more or less, fast evaporation (energy applied to raise all the liquid to a temperature where it will change phase to become a gas.

The situation in the atomiser is complex. But roughly speaking the boiling point of e-liquid is lower than that of PG or nicotine because it is a mixture in which water (and perhaps ethanol) lowers the combined bp value greatly although small in amount in the mixture. Boiling of mixtures however is not quite so simple as having a single bp; add that the temp is not constant and liquid is arriving at the heater coil erratically and one can expect some 'super-heating'. Plus the whole process is happening in air; and the difference in behaviour of chemicals in the gas phase.

Browning in cooking is a slow form of decomposition (plus oxidation) that is akin to a slow combustion.

There is no gas generated but air is gas. By atomization e-liquid turns into aerosol(or vapor) together with air. Atomization meaning e-liquid is break down into say 5um size droplets. There is no chemical reaction or anything else for that matter. In fact if one would capture the vapor and cool it down enough it would return back to liquid form(e-liquid), at least in theory. Both vapor and aerosol are proper terms. Saying it is a gas is inaccurate and misleading.
Related wiki pages: Aerosol, Aerosol_spray and Atomizer_nozzle.

 

[kinabaloo]

There is no gas generated but air is gas. By atomization e-liquid turns into aerosol(or vapor) together with air. Atomization meaning e-liquid is break down into say 5um size droplets. There is no chemical reaction or anything else for that matter. In fact if one would capture the vapor and cool it down enough it would return back to liquid form(e-liquid), at least in theory. Both vapor and aerosol are proper terms. Saying it is a gas is inaccurate and misleading.
Related wiki pages: Aerosol, Aerosol_spray and Atomizer_nozzle.

E-cigs could be based on misting either with a nozzle or with ultrasonic vibration. But current e-cigs turn the liquid into a gas that then cools and recondenses to a mist of tiny droplets. The liquid does pass through a gas phase (all except any non-volatile components that will be left on the heater coil as a dry residue.

 

[Tom09]

E-cigs could be based on misting either with a nozzle or with ultrasonic vibration. But current e-cigs turn the liquid into a gas that then cools and recondenses to a mist of tiny droplets. The liquid does pass through a gas phase [...]

I’d like to say: Kina, you are correct, the present design does force the liquid to pass through the gass phase.