This is why we cannot have nice things. - Can E-Cigarettes save BT?

[Hydroscopic]

Can E-Cigarettes Really Help Save the Tobacco Industry? via TheStreet.com

TL;DR: Big tobacco is cranking up the nicotine claiming the customers asked for more and profiting off of cig-a-likes. Article explains how they're trying to corner the market. - I complain for three to four paragraphs. At the least you can join CASAA if you haven't already.

Here are my sticking points:

Feedback from tobacco users prompted Nu Mark to change MarkTen over the past year, Phelps said, with a newer version including a higher amount of nicotine by weight. Nu Mark also is planning to introduce MarkTen XL, with a bigger battery and more e-vapor, he added.

Yes. Seriously. They are claiming that inexperienced vapers are setting the market trend. Because when it is a matter of trust, you can trust Big Tobacco to know better. They've got their hands on the pulse of smokers! Only the living ones, of course.

Reynolds sees its Vuse e-cigarette, which contains 4.8% nicotine and comes in menthol and non-menthol, as positioning the company well within the e-vapor industry.

Yes, because everyone should start at 48 mg of nicotine. No levels. No way to adjust the default. When I wonder who knows best and is looking out for their consumer's health interests, I think of Big Tobacco.

"When you look at the vapor category, there was very high adult interest, very high trial, but very low adoption," said Howard. "We felt we could make a product for adult tobacco consumers, and we're very pleased with the results."

There has to be some way to stop BT from cornering the market when they are using garbage hardware and liquid. As it says, 4.8% of nicotine in those awful gas station cig-a-likes.

No, those devices don't deliver as well as the others that are available today. The actual problem is that most people who get into vaping will start on the cig-a-likes that are most readily accessible to them. BT in the Convenience Stores are the new Mall Kiosks. We all know that the stores don't care, they just want you to buy. It is all about the sale and only the sale. Just as one smoker asking me about vaping once said to me three months ago: "I'll just talk to the guy in the mall at the kiosk because he knows more since he sells them."

That is the demographic that needs vaping and has absolutely no clue on where to legitimately find the community and correct information. They believe that what they are told, along with what they see in ads or in stores is the Holy Grail. BT is literally banking on this fact. New vapers have no idea that 4.8% is an incredibly high level and as the last line says, BT is thrilled to be cranking up the nicotine to sell their product. Just like they were ecstatic to put all those additives into traditional cigarettes. Can you imagine what they would put into their liquid to boost nicotine uptake?

I would like it to remain that when smokers say to me: "Those things are worse than cigarettes." That they not be correct because Big Tobacco had taken over the market.

Maybe if people that know better start seeing how BT is profiting off of cheap garbage and their plans to kill the open device format, they might be inclined to get involved with supporting all of the vaping/e-cig communities and organizations.

Forgive me. I'm not shocked by the news. I'm sorry. That article just made me a little cranky.
I'll get over it. Off the soapbox I go.

 

[BuGlen]

Frequent financial analysis of the market usually centers on the BT companies because they are incorporated and report their quarterly earnings. I'm sure that analysis on the independent manufacturers segment is being done, but it takes other methods to get any accurate data, so the reports come out in less frequency. It wouldn't make sense for the analysts to ignore the independent market completely, as it makes up the majority (by number of manufacturers) of the market right now, and it can influence the market for the big players in a significant way. Investors like to know the stability of a particular market and not just how well the big guys are doing right now.

 

[Rossum]

Yes, because everyone should start at 48 mg of nicotine. No levels. No way to adjust the default.

In order for a low-powered cigalike device to have much chance of being an effective, somewhat satisfying alternative to smoking, it's probably necessary for it to have have much higher nic levels than we're used to with our higher-powered devices. If you look at it in terms of VPF (Vape Power Factor, which I define as mg/ml times watts) Vuse is probably in the same ballpark that most long-term vapers are, at least those who are happy enough to be smoke-free and aren't trying to be nic-free as well.

 

[schatz]

In order for a low-powered cigalike device to have much chance of being an effective, somewhat satisfying alternative to smoking, it's probably necessary for it to have have much higher nic levels than we're used to with our higher-powered devices. If you look at it in terms of VPF (Vape Power Factor, which I define as mg/ml times watts) Vuse is probably in the same ballpark that most long-term vapers are, at least those who are happy enough to be smoke-free and aren't trying to be nic-free as well.

Or like i have been telling my wife,to justify my purchases the last couple of years, just wait big T will be adulterating all liquids in the future.Who knows what they might do to it.

 

[TaketheRedPill]

It's not 'unexperienced vapers' who are setting the market trend at all.

It's the experience of vapers, along with a study or two involving blood tests, that demonstrate it takes a higher initial level of vaped nicotine in beginner devices to get close to mimicking the effects of cigarette nicotine on the brain and satisfy cravings. Only about half the nicotine is absorbed with beginner devices and that nicotine is absorbed slower than cigarette nicotine. Historically, initial levels were somewhere around 18-24mg because that's all that was offered, meaning we got 9-12-slowly. The study on serum levels explains why early adopters had their vape glued to their faces the first few days, sweating out withdrawal, but were then able to drop levels quickly as their addiction was erroded.

Would-be quitters are by far the largest target audience for BT. BT (and we) can't claim ecigs as a quitting device without running afoul of the FDA, so their marketing message is for an ecig as a cigarette/nicotine replacement device. A cigalike that should vaped at the same frequency as a cigarette would be smoked - ie., once an hour or so. A higher nicotine level to feed the receptors quicker and also to help extend the time between dosing makes ecigs more attractive (and successful) to someone wanting to quit.

It was the vaping community itself who coined the term nicotine replacement so we can't blame BT for delivering what we asked for - a more effective quitting device and a closer mimic to the immediate effects of a cigarette's nicotine. For many, harm reduction continues to include inhaling as little eliquid /flavorings as possible on the way down to zero or a maintenance level of choice. I say bring on the 48mg tankcartos. They'll come in handy if we ever go to closed delivery systems.

 

[Hydroscopic]

Ugh. Long reply because I don't feel like making multiple reply posts. Thanks and sorry in advance.
Here goes:

Investors like to know the stability of a particular market and not just how well the big guys are doing right now.

A healthy financial market is a wonderful thing, but there is more to vaping than just sales. In terms of market health, how the community is doing is just as important as the sales because sales are influenced by the vaping movement.

In order for a low-powered cigalike device to have much chance of being an effective, somewhat satisfying alternative to smoking, it's probably necessary for it to have have much higher nic levels than we're used to with our higher-powered devices.

No argument there beyond placing a bit of a microscope on wondering what BT is planning on doing to their liquid. As much as we have better starter equipment now, it isn't reaching the mainstream smokers as rapidly as the cig-a-likes.

It feels like people have just given up on the cig-a-like market and are overlooking it. That concerns me somewhat because the cig-a-like market is where the BT battle for regulation is occurring. It is one of the front lines.

If you look at it in terms of VPF (Vape Power Factor, which I define as mg/ml times watts) Vuse is probably in the same ballpark that most long-term vapers are, at least those who are happy enough to be smoke-free and aren't trying to be nic-free as well.

My concern is that BT won't have a cap on 'how high is too high' with nicotine levels. Worst case they start using additives in liquid. They aren't regulated at the moment so BT may decide that they will intentionally push the envelope to get over-regulation in place that would kill the independent market. At that point we will have reinvented the smoking wheel and lost ground on vaping being the prospectively healthier viable alternative.

Since BT is recently in the spotlight as "e-cigarettes" it is the impression that supposedly the entire 'industry' would be viewed as doing what they are doing. Even if that wasn't, and isn't, the case. It is the problem with BT cornering the cig-a-like market without a challenge. Unfortunately what they do reflects upon us.

That mentioned, I also don't trust the FDA and Pharma to pick up the slack on BT liquid quality control. They didn't exactly do a bang-up job once everyone discovered all the additives in cigarettes. BT pretty much still has free reign. - Funny thing on how profit motives work.

It's not 'inexperienced vapers' who are setting the market trend at all.

Not the actual market and we know this, but in the cig-a-like realm the focus is on how to attract new vapers before they lose them to the pre-existing market. We get too caught up in the newest and best gear sometimes that we overlook the brand new prospective vaper and more importantly how to reach them. We need them in the community and in the independent market since we are now in competition with BT and BP.

I'd like to see an independent manage to mainstream better open equipment and liquid in at the gas station and convenience store levels. - We're talking eGo and cartotank level. Nothing excessive that a new vaper couldn't handle. Nothing too expensive or high maintenance that would give prospects a reason to shy away from vaping.

Ha! Pfft! Or maybe I'm just being an underdog cheerleader today.
Opinions. Behinds. We all have one. - People can dream, right?

It was the vaping community itself who coined the term nicotine replacement so we can't blame BT for delivering what we asked for - a more effective quitting device and a closer mimic to the immediate effects of a cigarette's nicotine. For many, harm reduction continues to include inhaling as little eliquid /flavorings as possible on the way down to zero or a maintenance level of choice. I say bring on the 48mg tankcartos.

Replacement is accurate even though the FDA disagrees. I actually tell people that vaping is a replacement option for smoking unless they choose to use vaping to quit at their own volition. It also usually stops some of the offline ANTZ arguments before they begin. I understand the NRT label dispute just as I respect those that aren't aiming to use vaping for cessation.

Technically vaping is either or depending upon the vaper's preference.
At the end of the day: Whatever keeps someone off the combustibles.

Again, today I'm cheerleading for the independents and innovators. BT isn't exactly known for their quality control and flexibility when it concerns products and profit margins.

They'll come in handy if we ever go to closed delivery systems.

DIY liquid, DIY tobacco tincture with a DIY mod in the event that my gear wasn't functional. I will learn to mod at my own risk. There really isn't a way to put the genie back in the bottle. It has been proven time and time again that prohibition doesn't work.

Regardless of your specific point of view, thanks for the interest in the discussion all.

 

[nicnik]

For many, harm reduction continues to include inhaling as little eliquid /flavorings as possible on the way down to zero or a maintenance level of choice.

Last year, I realized I had more concerns about all other ingredients than for nicotine, so I increased nicotine percentage, or sometimes higher heat.

 

[Hydroscopic]

Last year, I realized I had more concerns about all other ingredients than for nicotine, so I increased nicotine percentage, or sometimes higher heat.

The difference though is being able to turn up the heat, dilute or add your own that fits your style with ease.
In the open end systems, choice is an amazing feature.

 

[mcclintock]

I saw a video where twisted420 was saying BT is making these things intentionally bad. I think it's even more insidious: they're trying to establish vaping devices as only something for use when you can't smoke. Their product is actually pretty good for that purpose, while being too ineffective and boring to be much use for quitting smokes. Plus no path of shrinking nicotine levels.

 

[sofarsogood]

Cigalikes sell in convenience type stores, cash and carry, where customer support and service are minimal or non existent. Pipe tobacco and pipes usually sell in specialty shops with customer support. That distincition would apply to cigalikes and vaping gear. The tobacco companies aren't going to open chains of vaping stores. They can't sell complicated high end products in gas stations.

Global tobacco revenues are upwards of $800 billion per year. The ecig market could equal or exceed that. Governments take 80% of that in taxes so 'Big Tobacco' isn't as big as it appears. A lot of vapers seem to spend as much on ecigs as they probably did on cigarettes so the ecig industry could do very well for everybody including the tobacco industry. Imagine if all of that $800 billion of revenues were in ecigs instead of tobacco and free of excise taxes. There would be plenty of revenues for everybody including tobacco companies.

 

[sofarsogood]

duplicate post deleted

 

[Kent C]

The problem with many cigalikes isn't the lack of nicotine but the lack of vapor which imo, is about 50% or more of the 'habit'/joy. Those analysts (or manufacturers) who don't understand that will never get it right.

 

[TaketheRedPill]

I'd like to see an independent manage to mainstream better open equipment and liquid in at the gas station and convenience store levels.

I see where you're coming from but are you going to get any consistent level of expertise at the average minimart? isn't the employee turnover ratio too high? It'd probably be a training nightmare. . A minimart cig is an impulse-buy, can't-get-in-much-trouble device. But that buyer is going to run across a vape shop sign sooner or later, and stop by that business to see, why is there a shop dedicated to vaping? Investing $15 in a minimart cig is a no-biggie, but investing more than $30 and I think people really want to be hands-on and ask a lot of questions (especially if they haven't found any forums). That's where B&Ms come in as not just another source for emergency eliquid.

I'm not handy with the multi-quote yet, but you did mention, something about is 48 too high or what will be too high?. The way I'm looking at it is, if we ever do go to a closed delivery system, for those who vape 3mg, 48mgx3=144mg will go a long way. It won't be the first time we've cracked open tanks or leached polyfill for DIY. The first glycerine I ever used was wilton's from the bakery supply shop.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Frequent financial analysis of the market usually centers on the BT companies because they are incorporated and report their quarterly earnings. I'm sure that analysis on the independent manufacturers segment is being done, but it takes other methods to get any accurate data, so the reports come out in less frequency. It wouldn't make sense for the analysts to ignore the independent market completely, as it makes up the majority (by number of manufacturers) of the market right now, and it can influence the market for the big players in a significant way. Investors like to know the stability of a particular market and not just how well the big guys are doing right now.

there is no real way to accurately measure the sales figures of the full vaping market. The devices and supplies come from too many suppliers. Many juices bought are made by independent small makers same with many mech mods and even tanks and drippers.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

there is no real way to accurately measure the sales figures of the full vaping market. The devices and supplies come from too many suppliers. Many juices bought are made by independent small makers same with many mech mods and even tanks and drippers.

...no refutation of what you are saying. I found this interesting statement on Wikipedia's "Electronic Cigarette" topic...

"In the US there are over a hundred small e-cigarette businesses, with about 70% of the market held by 10 businesses."

There may be some intelligence to be found among those businesses.

In general, the Wikipedia article provides an interesting read.

 

[Hydroscopic]

Global tobacco revenues are upwards of $800 billion per year. ... Governments take 80% of that in taxes so 'Big Tobacco' isn't as big as it appears.

Taxes aren't that high in other countries, especially the non-westernized ones, because the governments co-operate with BT for profit or they simply cannot afford to fight BT lawsuits if those countries try to impose regulation. If anyone is curious take a look at " VICE on HBO Season One: Addiction " on smoking in Indonesia.
The entire segment is worth a view to get a non-westernized perspective. If that isn't your cup of tea, then the discussion about the government is at 8:02 and/or at 15:03 a former Senior V.P. from Phillip Morris even explains the industry outlook in a few sentences.

I understand where you are coming from even at the points where we differ.

 

[nicnik]

The problem with many cigalikes isn't the lack of nicotine but the lack of vapor which imo, is about 50% or more of the 'habit'/joy. Those analysts (or manufacturers) who don't understand that will never get it right.

Also, in trying to get a good amount of vapor in a draw, it's easy to burn the wick or filler, usually just slightly at first, which combined with the greater expense per dose, might result in some people going farther than they should with a cartridge beginning to taste burnt, not wanting to waste their money.

Plenty of other disadvantages that can cause someone to give up on them, and continue smoking, not realizing there's much more effective equipment to be had elsewhere.

 

[Lessifer]

Vuse and Mark Ten are the latest entrants in the market, yet they seem to be the ones that get the most press. Most, if not all, of the other cigalike brands have branched out into ego/clearo systems, or even open container juice lines. Cigalikes will probably always have a place in the market, as long as there are actual cigarettes available, it's mostly a psychological thing. Heck, they'll probably continue to be the lion's share of the market for a long time, due to the "I want something that looks/feels like a cigarette" as well as their availability pretty much everywhere cigarettes are sold.

 

[Hydroscopic]

I see where you're coming from but are you going to get any consistent level of expertise at the average mini-mart? Isn't the employee turnover ratio too high? It'd probably be a training nightmare. A Minimart cig is an impulse-buy, can't-get-in-much-trouble device.

No worries. The world would be a very dangerous place if everyone agreed with each other all the time.

Let's see if I can give a better example. Maybe, maybe not. Here it is: I could equate the retail niche to Zippo. Anyone who owns a Zippo knows that they are not entirely plug-and-play. Maintaining one doesn't require learning Quantum Mechanics. They cost more and are often sold alongside disposables. There is a market for them even though the majority of people use dispoables. The eGo-styles are like Zippo.

Instruction with high turnover: Still only talking basic equipment. Product manuals.

I looked at the BT starter kit pricing running from $15 - $130 not including shipping, retail markup, sales taxes, cost-of-living adjustments, refills, etc... Four out of the six that I looked at offered kits in the $30 - $40 range. (Blu, NJOY, GreenSmoke, VUSE, LOGIC, MarkTen) Take from that what you will.

... but you did mention something about: 'Is 48 too high or what will be too high?' The way I'm looking at it is, if we ever do go to a closed delivery system, for those who vape 3 mg, 48 mg x 3 = 144 mg will go a long way.

Generally 48 mg is high for people that aren't heavy smokers. In terms of a nicotine fix only, going on the assumption of no liquid altering, it might be fine for the example. It might be too harsh for others. Only those people could answer that question.

A few may even be prompted to relapse back to the combustibles due to the level and design/feel so closely mimics smoking. Admittedly, relapse to combustibles is a viable profit motive. It is much cheaper to use the existing combustible manufacturing infrastructure rather than upgrade and retrofit factories for technology. It is much cheaper to alter the liquid with additives than to upgrade the delivery system.

BT vaping: Literally trusting your drug's kingpins to get you into a successful rehab and help you stay clean.

I'm not handy with the multi-quote yet

I just copy the first tag and break it up when it is one post and add the close /QUOTE tag.
For multiple posts you have to put all the quotes in the queue first and then hit the button to quote them.

Maybe that can help someone in the future.

 

[drksideken]

They've got their hands on the pulse of smokers!

More like their throats. People that don't have a good b&m near them, that I can see, but I cannot fathom anyone working at a b&m store recommending a cigalike to anyone. Maybe someone can start up a donation program similar to a food bank for those that can't afford buy a starter kit right away. I know...if they have money to smoke, they have money to get the starter kits, but if they smoke and are really addicted to them, they won't last long enough off of the cigs to buy a starter kit. Not sure if that made sense, but you know...the whole vape it forward kinda thing.