Toxicity Assessment of Refill Liquids for Electronic Cigarettes
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Thanks for stopping by Dr. F. There was a neuroscientist posting in the forum for a while who took up vaping to see if nicotine would help him avoid forgetful moments in lectures, etc. It was fun to pick his brain. He reports vaping unflavored liquid at 4.8% nic and as little as possible to get a buzz at specific times. He also reports no withdrawal symptoms if he takes time off from vaping. He told us he ran a government toxicology lab before taking a University position and he seems quite cautious about the toxicity issues.
Most of us want to know the risks and have the means to manage or minimize them. Your work is a step in that direction. Thanks so much for anything you care to offer to help us have a safer vape.
Most of us want to know the risks and have the means to manage or minimize them. Your work is a step in that direction. Thanks so much for anything you care to offer to help us have a safer vape.
I understand what you are saying, but people do get stomach cancer also. My MIL, had non-hodgkins lymphoma a few years ago. She's always been a non-smoker and very minimal drinker. She did survive it. My former accountant died of pancreatic cancer last year-also a non-smoker and minimal drinker. I bet many of us know people with similar stories. Of course, no one probably knows what caused their cancers and it may have nothing to do with food flavorings.
I think if something is unknown, it may be a "concern." Let's not give embodiment to an unknown. I suppose if something is known (harmful) then it can perhaps escalate to an "issue."
The most pertinent question to ask Dr. F is "what juice does he vape?" I want some because I am sure he probably is pretty cautious. (I picture Dr. F in his home lab mixing his own DIY juice).
In all seriousness, the flavor percentage thing is hard because different flavoring companies have different concentrations of flavor per mL. 5% of a TFA flavoring isn't the same as 5% of a FA flavoring (FA is much more concentrated). Thus, it makes no sense to say "OK, guys 20% is the max flavor allowed." 20% of a FA flavor is way too much, but might not be enough for a TFA flavor (just using these companies as examples since they are widely used in e-liquid). The big companies (5 Pawns, Space Jam, Suicide Bunny, etc.) probably have the money to do advanced testing to keep all individual compounds at a certain level, but the vast majority of juice vendors do not. Most vendors just find something that tastes good and then go with it. The total percentage of flavors may be 10, 15, 20, even 30%.
Also, there's an issue with trade secrets. Some flavor companies (like TFA who are good people and readily answer questions posed by vapers) will list most of the individual compounds in a flavor, but even they will leave one or two spaces blank and proclaim "trade secret." There needs to be a way around this issue. An independent third party who agrees to respect trade secrets, but still has access to the full list of chemical compounds. There is such an organization already within the food flavoring industry. It's called FEMA (not to be confused with the government disaster relief agency). However, FEMA only regulates flavorings for safety of ingestion not inhalation, so it's really no good for our purposes (or at least only of moderate usefulness).
AEMSA proposed this exact system (for eliquids, not flavors) and very few vendors joined even though AEMSA was legally bound to keep all recipes a secret. A lot of vendors proclaimed AEMSA membership is too expensive, but I call BS. The cost of membership for some of these big juice vendors would be pocket change, yet they didn't join. Why? I can think of two reasons. 1) They are using diketones in their juice lines and don't want it to be made public (or they know AEMSA wont accept them because they do use diketones). 2) They don't want to hand over their recipes (you have to do this to join AEMSA since AEMSA regulates what flavorings one can use in an ejuice).
In any case, I suspect the FDA will probably lay down some asinine regulation (not backed by science) with some arbitrary percentage of flavorings allowed. The question is what percentage is a "safe" percentage? I don't think anyone knows. I think there is probably data on which individual chemicals are safe and at what concentration (ppm, etc), but most juice vendors aren't going to have the money to have their liquids tested to ensure each individual chemical is below a certain ppm. And even the one's that do have the money will probably have to totally re-work their recipes in some cases in order to bring them in line with the regulations.
Interesting times ahead to be sure.
In all seriousness, the flavor percentage thing is hard because different flavoring companies have different concentrations of flavor per mL. 5% of a TFA flavoring isn't the same as 5% of a FA flavoring (FA is much more concentrated). Thus, it makes no sense to say "OK, guys 20% is the max flavor allowed." 20% of a FA flavor is way too much, but might not be enough for a TFA flavor (just using these companies as examples since they are widely used in e-liquid). The big companies (5 Pawns, Space Jam, Suicide Bunny, etc.) probably have the money to do advanced testing to keep all individual compounds at a certain level, but the vast majority of juice vendors do not. Most vendors just find something that tastes good and then go with it. The total percentage of flavors may be 10, 15, 20, even 30%.
Also, there's an issue with trade secrets. Some flavor companies (like TFA who are good people and readily answer questions posed by vapers) will list most of the individual compounds in a flavor, but even they will leave one or two spaces blank and proclaim "trade secret." There needs to be a way around this issue. An independent third party who agrees to respect trade secrets, but still has access to the full list of chemical compounds. There is such an organization already within the food flavoring industry. It's called FEMA (not to be confused with the government disaster relief agency). However, FEMA only regulates flavorings for safety of ingestion not inhalation, so it's really no good for our purposes (or at least only of moderate usefulness).
AEMSA proposed this exact system (for eliquids, not flavors) and very few vendors joined even though AEMSA was legally bound to keep all recipes a secret. A lot of vendors proclaimed AEMSA membership is too expensive, but I call BS. The cost of membership for some of these big juice vendors would be pocket change, yet they didn't join. Why? I can think of two reasons. 1) They are using diketones in their juice lines and don't want it to be made public (or they know AEMSA wont accept them because they do use diketones). 2) They don't want to hand over their recipes (you have to do this to join AEMSA since AEMSA regulates what flavorings one can use in an ejuice).
In any case, I suspect the FDA will probably lay down some asinine regulation (not backed by science) with some arbitrary percentage of flavorings allowed. The question is what percentage is a "safe" percentage? I don't think anyone knows. I think there is probably data on which individual chemicals are safe and at what concentration (ppm, etc), but most juice vendors aren't going to have the money to have their liquids tested to ensure each individual chemical is below a certain ppm. And even the one's that do have the money will probably have to totally re-work their recipes in some cases in order to bring them in line with the regulations.
Interesting times ahead to be sure.
Personally, I don't worry at all about bacteria. It's everywhere. And spending your life in an antibacterial bubble causes more harm than good. I listen to my body. Been vaping 2 years and haven't even had anything more than a minor passing cold let alone a bacterial infection.
Everyone should be at least a little concerned about flavorings. We just don't know. We're part of a giant experiment whether we like it or not. I can vape unflavored and still do once in a while. But I also mix my own stuff so I know exactly how much flavor and what kinds I have in my juice. But that still doesn't mean I know exactly what's in them. It's a risk I feel worth taking given the 2 other options on the table.
I believe there is a "chance" that high power/high heat vaping could potential produce unwanted byproducts. Just a chance. So I stick to basic gear and keep the power low. I prefer a cool vape anyway. I rarely go over 7 watts. Not because I'm afraid to go higher. It's my sweet spot all things considered. I'm not a limit pusher anyways. Not my style.
Since I've joined ECF nearly 2 years ago there is always a recurring theme of "chasing" the fact that vaping is 100% safe. I gave up on that idea a long time ago. And I'm good with it. 100% safe anything is unattainable in life. A goal that can't be reached.
As more data comes out over the years I'll modify my mixes accordingly. Right now I don't have a single worry about causing real harm to my body and I would never expect any eliquid study to find "nothing".
Everyone should be at least a little concerned about flavorings. We just don't know. We're part of a giant experiment whether we like it or not. I can vape unflavored and still do once in a while. But I also mix my own stuff so I know exactly how much flavor and what kinds I have in my juice. But that still doesn't mean I know exactly what's in them. It's a risk I feel worth taking given the 2 other options on the table.
I believe there is a "chance" that high power/high heat vaping could potential produce unwanted byproducts. Just a chance. So I stick to basic gear and keep the power low. I prefer a cool vape anyway. I rarely go over 7 watts. Not because I'm afraid to go higher. It's my sweet spot all things considered. I'm not a limit pusher anyways. Not my style.
Since I've joined ECF nearly 2 years ago there is always a recurring theme of "chasing" the fact that vaping is 100% safe. I gave up on that idea a long time ago. And I'm good with it. 100% safe anything is unattainable in life. A goal that can't be reached.
As more data comes out over the years I'll modify my mixes accordingly. Right now I don't have a single worry about causing real harm to my body and I would never expect any eliquid study to find "nothing".
Thanks for posting this!
I only started vaping a month ago and after asking the local B&M shops what exactly is in the liquids they are selling - none could tell me - and it was surprising how little they knew other that it was "a good product". I was more interested in hardware at the time, but decided to switch focus on the liquids, though I know hardware plays a big role.
I felt, for myself, it would be best if I DIY as I could control and know the ingredients and limit anything extra getting added to make a better product down the road. I tried to find the best quality of PG, VG and Nic base with a USP label and settled on FlavourArt as a brand for flavouring for a number of reasons. It would be nice to see more studies looking at PG, VG and Nic base only as a comparator, maybe politically it would be misused though, but to understand things it would be helpful (to me).
From the paper: "We purchased only commercial liquids, even though home-mixed liquids and random recipes can be of major toxicological concern".
Is the concerns in DIY the PG/VG/Nic base or does it more have to do with the flavourings and "other" things that could be added by someone?
I only started vaping a month ago and after asking the local B&M shops what exactly is in the liquids they are selling - none could tell me - and it was surprising how little they knew other that it was "a good product". I was more interested in hardware at the time, but decided to switch focus on the liquids, though I know hardware plays a big role.
I felt, for myself, it would be best if I DIY as I could control and know the ingredients and limit anything extra getting added to make a better product down the road. I tried to find the best quality of PG, VG and Nic base with a USP label and settled on FlavourArt as a brand for flavouring for a number of reasons. It would be nice to see more studies looking at PG, VG and Nic base only as a comparator, maybe politically it would be misused though, but to understand things it would be helpful (to me).
From the paper: "We purchased only commercial liquids, even though home-mixed liquids and random recipes can be of major toxicological concern".
Is the concerns in DIY the PG/VG/Nic base or does it more have to do with the flavourings and "other" things that could be added by someone?
even with the flavors vaping is still magnitudes of order safer
than smoking.
i think Dr. F pointed out in one of his studies there would
perhaps be one indecent or less of a lung related illness
per one hundred thousand people over a 35 year exposure
to the (diketones?) at the level they are found in e-cigs.
for one thing a 35 year exposure per 100,000 is a long way to go to
quantify harm at such a low level.
contrast that with roughly 76 out of a thousand life long smokers
will get lung cancer.
when we talk about potential harm how low does the risk have
to be before it really is of no concern at all?
regards
mike
than smoking.
i think Dr. F pointed out in one of his studies there would
perhaps be one indecent or less of a lung related illness
per one hundred thousand people over a 35 year exposure
to the (diketones?) at the level they are found in e-cigs.
for one thing a 35 year exposure per 100,000 is a long way to go to
quantify harm at such a low level.
contrast that with roughly 76 out of a thousand life long smokers
will get lung cancer.
when we talk about potential harm how low does the risk have
to be before it really is of no concern at all?
regards
mike
That question occurred to me as well.
I assume they wouldn't have mentioned it if they were dead.
But you know how that assume thing goes sometimes...
perhaps i should say if there are germs in exhaled vapor they
would be less likely to be a worry as they would be submersed
in a viscous liquid,not freely floating in ambient air.
regards
mike
i think we are making the same point.
the other poster was concerned when we exhale and the germs
from our own bodies which i don't think to be an issue either.
mike
The bacteria/mold have to be alive to register in those tests. However, the result of 1 CFU is hardly reliable, as it could've easily occurred as a result of test contamination in the lab
If I read this correctly NRDC: Bottled Water the acceptable cfu/ml of bottled drinking water is 20, for perspective.
True, but I do heat it pretty high.Yes, "but you don't inhale it", as any well seasoned ANTZ would say.....
I read the whole thing and what I got from it was that even though vaping is much safer than smoking, depending on the volume you consume, you may very well erode much of that safety margin away by doing huge, sub-ohm/high wattage style lung hits. High volume vaping is very likely terrible for your health and longevity, and this is largely a variable risk dependent on e-juice which is unregulated for safety. At least you won't get all that nasty tar though. Might still get cancer or some other nasty crap. Anyway, that's what I got from the study.
Agree 100% with the ideas of moderation. I found several months ago I was using way too much flavor in my own DiY after cutting it in half and surprisingly finding more flavor rather than less. Very tempted to try the no flavor route because honestly the taste is about the least important thing to me, the nicotine and the actions are what keeps me vaping rather than smoking. If you look at it in comparison to what a cigarette tastes like and you would have to dip pretty low to get anywhere near that.
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