The end of microcoils?

[zoiDman]

Somehow I must have made a left turn, cus I originally was in a thread about coils and wire, but now I'm smack dab in the middle of a discussion about the existence of salt, and what is or isn't a molecule. What just happened?!

Yeah...

I would Really Like some Information on what is Supposed to Happen/Change when a person "Dry Burns" a Coil.

 

[Magaro]

well it didnt turn into a pool of molten metal, it did what you said. Maybe the term I was looking for is it lost its structure, which leads me to believe on the 'molecular level' something changed. It just started changing colors from black to light grey and sagged/unwound, some would fall off the posts at the leads. I tried to vape one that turned color to that light grey color cuz i figured its just it being oxidized or whatever, but it gave me that disgusting metal taste.

this was 0.2ohm coil at 2.87v/40watts, just tried it again now on my vaporshark. Ive done it several times on accident on my mech mod as well at 0.2-0.3 at 3.7-4.2v. On the one I did just now on my vaporshark at 2.87v/40watts, it did sag a little and turned that grey oxidized color, and the smell of metal was coming off it, the leads turned black near the postholes.

The "glow" you should be looking for is the first visibly detectable shade of red. Not orange or yellow or god-forbid white - just barely red. Anything else is way too hot.

 

[Magaro]

I've breathed more gases in by welding with one piece of NiChrome wire than I will dry burnin 1000 coils
I've also welded buku stainless, galvanized, aluminum, magnesium, and copper. But I do have COPD

Like your post - sorry about the COPD.

 

[zoiDman]

Dry Buring, to me, is about Stopping when I see the Coil start to Turn Red.

Same with Testing a Coil. If I see a Coil is Turing Red in the Center, I don't need to give it much more Power. I know that the Coil will do what I want it to do.

I don't Build with Much besides NiChrome 80 in 28 or 30ga. And I don't build much below 1.0 Ohm.

At those Gauges and at 1.0 Ohm or more, my coils seem to be Completely Stable.

 

[alicewonderland]

For me at least, I could never get nichrome to retain it's wound shape unless I torched it before winding it, which now we've been told not to do....

yeah it is more malleable than kanthal, thats why I chose to work with 24gauge. I had a hell of a time trying to work with 28gauge for the nickelbuilds for temp control, never going back to that again. I dont need to torch it or dryburn it to keep its shape at 24gauge.

but yeah, ive seen alot of youtubers pulse their coils, I know how to pulse a coil, so if im doing it wrong then rubyroo, grimgreen, pbusardo, someone should go tell them they are dryburning their coils wrong too. But lets not turn this into a 'how to dryburn correctly' discussion, I was simply stating that I have experienced nichrome wire giving up and tasting metallic after dryburning it or if there is not enough airflow in my RDA to cool down the wire during vaping. (im not dryburning while vaping), it gave off the metallic taste and lost its structural integrity when I tried to run 0.3-0.5ohm builds in a Rogue RDA, I assume it was due to the lack of airflow or heat dissipation in the RDA that caused the coils to overheat.

Relevant to you or not, its just my experience im sharing which leads me into giving the Dr. some credit for his claims although he did not support it with documentation, there may be some evidence for his claims. Myself, I will be shying away from trying to or accidentally dryburning or vaping my coils to a point where they heat up too much.

 

[Bikenstein]

Like your post - sorry about the COPD.

I forgot to mention I was 3 pad smoker too. Love my Spiriva, don't leave home without it. albuterol too

 

[zoiDman]

yeah it is more malleable than kanthal, thats why I chose to work with 24gauge. I had a hell of a time trying to work with 28gauge for the nickelbuilds for temp control, never going back to that again. I dont need to torch it or dryburn it to keep its shape at 24gauge.

but yeah, ive seen alot of youtubers pulse their coils, I know how to pulse a coil, so if im doing it wrong then rubyroo, grimgreen, pbusardo, someone should go tell them they are dryburning their coils wrong too. But lets not turn this into a 'how to dryburn correctly' discussion, I was simply stating that I have experienced nichrome wire giving up and tasting metallic after dryburning it or if there is not enough airflow in my RDA to cool down the wire during vaping. (im not dryburning while vaping), it gave off the metallic taste and lost its structural integrity when I tried to run 0.3-0.5ohm builds in a Rogue RDA, I assume it was due to the lack of airflow or heat dissipation in the RDA that caused the coils to overheat.

Relevant to you or not, its just my experience im sharing which leads me into giving the Dr. some credit for his claims although he did not support it with documentation, there may be some evidence for his claims.

You do bring up another Point. And that is Ni200.

Should Dry Burning effect Ni200?

There Isn't much in Ni200 besides Nickel.

 

[alicewonderland]

You do bring up another Point. And that is Ni200.

Should Dry Burning effect Ni200?

There Isn't much in Ni200 besides Nickel.

that was a debate amongst many when TC first came out, some didnt even want to try it because of it only being able to use nickel. When I was fiddling with it though on my DNA40, It never 'melted' or better worded the coil never 'gave' but I think it was mostly due to the mod sensing not to fire it to those temperatures, I did notice nickelwire gives a different taste, not unpleasant nor pleasant either for that matter, but nothing that made my brain say you shouldnt vape that. It just wasn't for me, but I think the actual temp control keeps it from heating up too much to those levels anyways. I dont think it would be possible to dryburn nickel to those levels unless you take off ur TC mode or set no limit (which would kind of make TC pointless), and its basically impossible or not recommended to use nickel wire to create builds on for anything other than TC use.

 

[crunchie812]

I saw this thread when it was first posted this morning. I started listening to the program but had to leave to go to the hardware store. Among the things I came back with was a little Weller mini torch, because my Bic is just a pain to use for annealing cois. Then I finished listening to the program.

Wow! And Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Dr. F was certainly emphatic about the dangers of torching and dry burning coils, but uncharacteristically offered no detail or data to back his statements. I don't really know anything about any resistance wire other than Kanthal and that is all I use for rebuilding. When you anneal Kanthal it forms a layer of aluminum oxide, or alumina if you prefer. This is a good thing. Alumina is a very hard substance used as the abrasive in much sandpaper, which doesn't react with much other than strong acids or alkalis. Anything that would eat through the alumina coating on annealed kanthal would probably kill you to vape. Alumina is also an electrical insulator, which allows you to bunch the coils together without them shorting across the contact points. This is also why I don't torch the legs of my coils, so as not to cause poor connections. As to the possibility of generating hexavalent chromium while annealing kanthal, I don't believe the temperatures are high enough, but that could better be answered by our metallurgists. I know from my time building stainless steel hoods and ducts that I have already been exposed to far more hexavalent chromium than you could produce by heating a years supply of kanthal to the melting point.

 

[Magaro]

Yeah...

I would Really Like some Information on what is Supposed to Happen/Change when a person "Dry Burns" a Coil.

Ideally, when you dry burn a coil you combust any contaminants and oxidize any remaining carbon deposits. If its a new coil, the oxide scale that forms on the coils electrically insulates each winding from its neighbor, eliminating shorts that can lead to hot spots. You also anneal the coil, making it easier to form into final shape if you so desire.

According to a link provided by the OP, Dr. Farsalino claims that dry burning a coil is a terrible idea, which somehow damages the "molecular bonding" of the alloy the coil is made from, leading to all sorts of unhealthy byproducts. Several posters, myself included, have questioned these claims in the absence of any supporting scientific evidence. Much spirited debated and discussion ensued.

 

[alicewonderland]

I saw this thread when it was first posted this morning. I started listening to the program but had to leave to go to the hardware store. Among the things I came back with was a little Weller mini torch, because my Bic is just a pain to use for annealing cois. Then I finished listening to the program.

Wow! And Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Dr. F was certainly emphatic about the dangers of torching and dry burning coils, but uncharacteristically offered no detail or data to back his statements. I don't really know anything about any resistance wire other than Kanthal and that is all I use for rebuilding. When you anneal Kanthal it forms a layer of aluminum oxide, or alumina if you prefer. This is a good thing. Alumina is a very hard substance used as the abrasive in much sandpaper, which doesn't react with much other than strong acids or alkalis. Anything that would eat through the alumina coating on annealed kanthal would probably kill you to vape. Alumina is also an electrical insulator, which allows you to bunch the coils together without them shorting across the contact points. This is also why I don't torch the legs of my coils, so as not to cause poor connections. As to the possibility of generating hexavalent chromium while annealing kanthal, I don't believe the temperatures are high enough, but that could better be answered by our metallurgists. I know from my time building stainless steel hoods and ducts that I have already been exposed to far more hexavalent chromium than you could produce by heating a years supply of kanthal to the melting point.

the thing im worried/interested in though, is if vaping on these wires, does a certain type of vaping give off amounts? Is there a certain way to vape to avoid all this stuff - if it even exists, and how hazardous is it to our health if we are exposed to these 'dangers'? I think the Dr. should definitely delve into this further and provide information, including different types of wire, different temperatures, resistances, power etc. For me i think there is enough 'evidence' (for lack of a better word) to justify further more in depth investigation.

 

[zoiDman]

Ideally, when you dry burn a coil you combust any contaminants and oxidize any remaining carbon deposits. If its a new coil, the oxide scale that forms on the coils electrically insulates each winding from its neighbor, eliminating shorts that can lead to hot spots. You also anneal the coil, making it easier to form into final shape if you so desire.

According to a link provided by the OP, Dr. Farsalino claims that dry burning a coil is a terrible idea, which somehow damages the "molecular bonding" of the alloy the coil is made from, leading to all sorts of unhealthy byproducts. Several posters, myself included, have questioned these claims in the absence of any supporting scientific evidence. Much spirited debated and discussion ensued.

That's for the Primer Info on Dry Burning. And the Overview of what is Going on in this Thread.

What is was going after though was "Why" does Dr. F think Dry Burning is Bad. And what are the Hazards that he Talked about?

 

[Magaro]

That's for the Primer Info on Dry Burning. And the Overview of what is Going on in this Thread.

What is was going after though was "Why" does Dr. F think Dry Burning is Bad. And what are the Hazards that he Talked about?

I think everyone is waiting for Dr. F to explain his somewhat-cryptic apocalyptic proclamation.

 

[zoiDman]

that was a debate amongst many when TC first came out, some didnt even want to try it because of it only being able to use nickel. When I was fiddling with it though on my DNA40, It never 'melted' or better worded the coil never 'gave' but I think it was mostly due to the mod sensing not to fire it to those temperatures, I did notice nickelwire gives a different taste, not unpleasant nor pleasant either for that matter, but nothing that made my brain say you shouldnt vape that. It just wasn't for me, but I think the actual temp control keeps it from heating up too much to those levels anyways. I dont think it would be possible to dryburn nickel to those levels unless you take off ur TC mode or set no limit (which would kind of make TC pointless), and its basically impossible or not recommended to use nickel wire to create builds on for anything other than TC use.

The One nice thing about Ni200 is it Doesn't have any other Substantial Alloys in it. It is about as Close as all but a Select Few will come to Holding a Pure Element in your Hand.

So the Discussion of things like Hexavalent Chromium or Aluminum Oxides doesn't Apply.

Guess we will all just have to Wait and see what Dr. F has to say in support of His Statements.

 

[zoiDman]

I think everyone is waiting for Dr. F to explain his somewhat-cryptic apocalyptic proclamation.

I know I am.

 

[alicewonderland]

I know I am.

yeah I can see the statements he made bringing a bunch of controversy to the table regarding ecigs. Without any proof there is not much we can do to avoid it, which could possibly lead to more ammunition for the REGGGULLLATTTOOORRRS.



sorry.

 

[Kivrin]

Well, someone Tweet at him and point him to this thread

 

[Rossum]

The One nice thing about Ni200 is it Doesn't have any other Substantial Alloys in it. It is about as Close as all but a Select Few will come to Holding a Pure Element in your Hand.

So the Discussion of things like Hexavalent Chromium or Aluminum Oxides doesn't Apply.

Of course the same applies to grade 1 titanium.

 

[Magaro]

The One nice thing about Ni200 is it Doesn't have any other Substantial Alloys in it. It is about as Close as all but a Select Few will come to Holding a Pure Element in your Hand.

So the Discussion of things like Hexavalent Chromium or Aluminum Oxides doesn't Apply.

Guess we will all just have to Wait and see what Dr. F has to say in support of His Statements.

Purer forms than NI200 of many metals are readily available.

NI200 doesn't contain chromium (hexavalent chromium isn't relevant to vaping, unless you're melting your coils) or aluminum, but that doesn't really help anyone with a nickel allergy.

There's no perfect solution.

Waiting patiently for Dr. F.

 

[BigEgo]

awsum,

I'll go one step further and give my opinion that I too appreciate Dr. F's work. That said he is a Cardiologist that seems to have a lot of free time on his hands. The Cardiologist in the City I live in require appointments months in advance because they are so busy. Why is it that Dr. "F" has so much free time... just food for thought.

Who do you think are the people that advance medicine? It's not the practitioners, but the researchers. There are plenty of M.D.s out there who don't actively practice but instead focus on research (or teaching). Who do you think gives lectures to potential doctors in med school? That's right, research doctors (professors of medicine). Some of them might practice, but many don't.

It's the same thing with any science. Engineers out there working for Apple don't really advance computer electronics (most of the time). No, it's the research scientists who work for universities or the government (DARPA, DoE, etc.). Remember, the Internet was not invented by Al Gore, but by DARPA (government scientists with research grants) in the 1960's. (Actually, it was a combination of government and university researchers at Berkeley). Your average engineer working a 9 to 5 at ACME corporation doesn't do research or publish papers (most of the time).

Now to get a little ugly he is not a scientist, metallurgist, chemist or anything else but a Cardiologist. So I take most of his medical states pretty much at face value as far as the rest of it well not so much.

I would say he is a scientist since he conducts scientific studies. But I agree with your point about specialists pontificating about topics outside their specialties. But, really, all e-cig researchers are sort of working outside their specialty since e-cigs are relatively new. Tobacco scientists don't really apply here either since e-cigs do not contain tobacco and do not combust. Therefore, I wouldn't trust someone who might be an expert in cigarette research to tell me about e-cigs. They are different animals.

Now to get myself off the hook I will give the Dr. credit for being a pretty intelligent guy with the ability to learn and acquire knowledge on almost any subject he wants to. What I really want to know is where is the chemistry lab full of Mass Spectrometer, Gas Chromatographs, and ISO 1 cleanroom. I won't mention the personnel to staff such a facility. After all he is running a crowd funded tax exempt capital investment organization to fund all his activity and last I heard it was at least in the range of $100,000 USD. That's a lot of rupees in the EU or anywhere for that matter.

My understanding is he uses a research center in his home country of Greece. The cardiac center for which he works is a research center, thus has the proper lab equipment.