TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance
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Haha, tell me about it! But the Infinite mods cost between $47 (VS clone) and $58 (Flask clone.) This is the price of a cheap meal for two (no wine), or a couple of home delivery pizzas. Or three tickets to a new movie at a cinema. Or two tickets to a (cheap) play/show. Or..
It's cheap, damn it
Think of it in terms of every day consumables and it's hard to justify not buying one! Of course then you end up buying 16 of them, so yeah, I see the problem.. 16 mods in 2015? In five months? That is good going
You could always sell a couple to raise funds? I have bought 7 in three months and I am thinking maybe now I should start selling a couple. Like the iStick and M80, neither of which I have even turned on in more than a week. I'm sure I could raise $60 between the two of them, then I can buy my second Infinite-chip mod. I definitely need a second Infinite chip - the other day I got two new Kangxin Mini VF 50W mods, that I ordered a while before I got the Infinite flask. I have barely used them so far. I keep picking up an atty and thinking of trying it, then I remember "oh, that's SS"; "oh, that one is 0.06 resistance..".It's a hard life being on the cutting edge of vaping and TC!
Is the one of the mods you are going to get a Dicodes? I really would like to see one of those in action, but I really don't think I can yet. Both the huge cost, and the tube mod form factor.. but I really would love to try one to compare against the Infinite..
Being able to set the temperature in degrees or to measure it and see it on a screen is a 'nice to have' but unnecessary for our purposes; all we really need is to adjust up or down.
I think the asolo ijoy has the right idea.
I think the asolo ijoy has the right idea.
The iJoy is definitely interesting and it could, as you say, provide a good alternative method. Here's the discussion thread on that new mod, for others who haven't heard of it and don't know what it does differently.
But I am not sure to what extent I agree that that will be a game changer, or the best way to do it.
Using a temperature scale gives an immediately understandable metric familiar to everyone. Further, it's very easy to record, remember, share and discuss - "I vape the this build on the Magma at 420°F"; "with XYZ build, I find I use a temperature Z°F lower than ABC build." And so on.
I am not sure how much that translates to the iJoy's new style where you just start vaping then - so far as I understand it - hit a button to say "yes that's the vape I want!" Then it presumably records the resistance at that point (do you have to hit the button while you vape? Or afterwards? If after, does it remember the highest resistance point reached? Is that definitely the one that you want? But the resistance will change as the juice levels change?) In effect re-calibrating for every build, every time.
It might be simpler for them to design, and has the advantage of perhaps working automatically with various wires - though I still cannot understand how they claim that this includes Kanthal, which only increases resistance by 0.01 up to 972°F.
But I remain to be convinced that it will be better for most users. I believe most people want easy repeatability, and an understandable scale - there's a reason that ovens have a temperature dial and not just a "this is the right temp" button (and it was the invention of an accurate temperature gauge that revolutionised and standardised cooking.) I accept that the analogy is not completely applicable to vaping, but many aspects of it are.
For one thing, certain wires such as Titanium and Ni200 must not go above certain temperatures - 600°F in the case of Ni200. How will the iJoy, or a user of it, ensure that?
To be honest the whole thing is quite shrouded in mystery at the moment. We need to know a lot more about the iJoy and see it in use. I will certainly give them props for seeming to come up with a very new way of doing things. And if it's better, even if only for some users, that'll be awesome. But so far I remain to be convinced that it could be.
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1: it may not be the 'best' way to do it, depending on the definition of best, but if you don't have to worry about knowing the actually temperature, it's going to be the cheapest.
We the user do not need to know the actual temperature, we just need it to remain there once we like it.
2: I'm puzzled by the comment about resistance changing as the juice level changes. I have no idea where that is coming from.
3: Yes, simpler to implement is what I'm focusing on.
Your statement about kanthal increasing resistance by 0.01 up to 972 degreeF is incomplete.
Perhaps you are referring to a 1 ohm length of kanthal?
I've been looking for kanthal temperature coefficient of resistance, but so far haven't found it.
Temperature control is still new. All I'm saying is when cars were new, a rolls Royce would have been nice, but people bought their fords, and voltswagens
Just some temperature coefficients of electrical resistance I've found. Not sure which one is correct. I figure a good thermometer wrapped in kapton high temp tape could be used to accurately determine it. Someone should go and earn a million karma by doing some tests
Nickel Temperature coefficient of electrical resistance
0.641%
Resistivity, Conductivity and Temperature Coefficients for some Common Materials
0.6%
Electrical resistivity and conductivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
0.5866%
Temperature coefficient of resistance : Physics Of Conductors And Insulators - Electronics Textbook
Titanium Temperature coefficient of electrical resistance:
0.38%
Titanium - online catalogue source - supplier of research materials in small quantities - Goodfellow
0.35%
Titanium definition of Titanium in the Free Online Encyclopedia
as far as I know the US and european definitions of TCR are different so worth thinking about!
I think one is defined with respect to a reference temp at 20C (293K) and the other at 0C (273K). I'll have a look and see if I can find a link!
Actually I think it only affects the way in which resistance change with temp is tabulated. The difference in reference temp should not affect the slope of the line which is the TCR...
I've already asked SXK
20 Μαΐου 2:56 μ.μ.
does temp control works with titanium wire on vaporflask 60W?
21 Μαΐου 11:19 π.μ.
Sorry, it can just be fit for any wire with Nickel for now
I've already asked SXK
20 Μαΐου 2:56 μ.μ.
does temp control works with titanium wire on vaporflask 60W?
21 Μαΐου 11:19 π.μ.
Sorry, it can just be fit for any wire with Nickel for now
Oh well done for asking. Well that's very strange then. It could be that the techies realised the potential but the sales people have not been informed properly.
Even basic TC mods, without TCR adjustment, 'work' with Titanium with some adjustments.
So this is more general sales ignorance I think.
Uhm... I might be wrong, but I think there's a fundamental concept that is always overlooked when speaking about the temperature coefficient, which is the fact that it describes the relative change of a certain property (in this case resistance) associated with a given change in temperature.
In other words, for resistance, the TCR is defined, approximating the TCR itself as a constant (which is not really, i.e. it does change itself with T):
R(T) = R0(1 + TCR*(T - T0)) = R0 + R0 * TCR * (T-T0)
If you notice, the initial resistance R0 goes to multiply with TCR and becomes the "whole" factor that the temperature difference is multiplied by.
That means that you can't just take the TCR itself, multiply by the temperature difference and add it to the initial resistance, instead the initial resistance itself influences how much the temperature difference will eventually contribute to the resistance change.
Now, if that is correct, I just think that all the examples you've seen have used 0.1 ohm as the initial resistance, which is why you get the 1/10 factor you're dubious about...
Hey, I'm not completely sure that's the case, but I'm quite sure the usual interpretation of TCR as a simple linear coefficient to be applied to temperature difference might not be the most correct thing to do.
Hope this makes sense...
You're not alone,
I've a zero clone 60W with the same chipset (I assume, given the screen layout and the fact that it has the "nickel purity" functionality) which is giving me constant 0.03 ohms less than anything else. I initially though it was due to the non-spring-loaded 510 pin, which is by the way probably the best thing for TC (springs might be too soft or get softer after a while, and then become unable to push hard enough to get good contact), but there's a fixed center pin on my dani too, and it reads higher
So, given we have the same behavior from the same chip in different mods (mine is a zero clone, yours is a VF clone if I'm correct), I'd say the chip has something suboptimal in terms of resistance measurement, which I'm a bit uncomfortable with as for the rest it seems really great.
Has anybody else seen this on the infinite chips?
Well, I must say I'm not so much in tubes as well, but I couldn't resist getting one to try its amazing configurability.How are you finding the Dicodes mod in general? I would love to have a mod that's so sophisticated and configurable. It looks amazing, must be 10x more options than most mods. It's my dream of a configurable mod, well planned, properly structured menus, etc etc. I just wish, so so much, that they hadn't put it in a tube with a single button
I can say it's really fantastic: perfectly done, consistent and reliable performance and not that big even in the L size (for 18650) I have.
The single button is scaring at the beginning and the menu system is really something you have to get used to, but once you get it, it becomes second nature and you find yourself "browsing" quite easily across all the functionalities.
The only thing that bugs me, and that I wasn't able to fully understand, is that by reading the manual it seems like the board does NOT have an internal thermometer so that it assumes always 20 °C when you calibrate the resistance.
That means that you have to know which is the temperature both the atty and the device are when you calibrate and then compensate for any difference from the nominal 20 °C. I.e. if you calibrate and you know you're at 30 °C, you have to set your desired temperature 10 °C lower.
I'm not sure that's really how it works, the manual seem to imply that, but it really seems too weird as a choice for an otherwise perfect device.
I wrote to dicodes to ask about this, but I'm not getting any answer, so if there's someone else here that can shed some light I'd be very grateful.
Again, for anything else it's an amazing device, I'm getting to like tubes again because of it ;-)
Of course! You are very much not wrong. I am wrong, and I suck at maths
Yes all examples where I checked the Ω/°C relation were done with 0.1. Of course that's reason, duh!
I just checked again with a starting coil of 1.0 and the resistance by 0.006Ω for each °C at that starting resistance.
Thank you so much, I am going back to try and edit that into my earlier post
OK I have edited my second post. The wording might still need improving, but the basics are there. @ndb70 could you check and let me know your thoughts?
And thanks again for figuring that out!
And thanks again for figuring that out!
No problem, I'm trying to learn as much as possible and I want to share what I get along the way.
Looked at the post, sounds good to me.
I found an Application Note for temperature-controlled vaping through the dicodes site, which is pretty basic but interesting (I think I already reported it in one other thread, but I can't remember where, so sorry if it's old story for someone), and I really like the way they use to describe TCR in terms of
The percentage a certain resistance will vary in response to a temperature change
This pretty much summarize everything and conveys the "relative" aspect, i.e. its implicit dependency on what the initial resistance is.
Yeah you're right, that's a good way to put it. They put all coefficients in terms of %s. I will think about whether I can easily update my posts accordingly. %s are probably easier than 0.006 etc.
Someone raised that Application Note on the Titanium thread I think it was - I don't think it was you in that thread? It is incredibly interesting, and I think highlights Dicodes as the premiere TC company of today. I am sure Evolv and Yihi and the rest understand these same points, but they are not telling anyone. Think how little info Evolv gave when they pioneered TC - basically "use Nickel, spaced coils"; compare that to this document from Dicodes.
Actually I disagree that it is basic - yes we probably know most/all of it now from our own research. But 99% of TC users do not. I think this document actually enhances the knowledge of TC quit significantly compared to what else is out there. I mean, what have Yihi or Evolv published that compares to this? Have they published anything? I don't think so.
I have enormous respect for Dicodes having seen their new mods and now this document. They are taking vaping to a truly high-tech area, and also working to advance the general knowledge. I just wish they had more presence in the English speaking vaping world!
This is the part of the document that I found most interesting when I first heard about it:
Due to the warming up of the vaporizer and head, it is advantageous to have a spring element between atomizer and mod, to compensate the danger of changing contact resistances. If neither the mod nor the atomizer has a spring contact, it is better to have the mechanical stop provided by the contact pin and not by the head. In other words electrically it is better to accept a gap between atomizer and head as otherwise the resistance is somewhat undefined.
This is basically the opposite of what many of us have assumed up until now. It says that springs are good! My original theory for why this was was heating/cooling of touching metal contacts - as the atty/mod heats, the 510 pins/connections also heat, this might make their connection less solid. A spring one one or both sides will to some extent "soak up" those changes. The reason I thought that might be correct is the second part of their statement - that, if a spring is not used, it's better to have a gap. I figured that this gap might reduce the amount of heat transfer and thus reduce the changes resulting from heat.
I might be completely wrong about all of that. What are your thoughts?
Actually there is one part of the document that does not seem right, and in fact is a bit worrying - where they explain about "preparing the coil for TC", and they talk about dry burning it! Maybe they are meaning that for Resistherm and/or Stainless Steel (which they talked about in the preceding paragraph.) But this is a huge no-no for Ni200 and Ti, by far the most common TC wires. I am worried that they have this advice, it seems quite wrong.
Yes I just saw that in the Application Guide, that's very strange. They have done all this amazing work on such a sophisticated TC system, and all the thought/design that has gone into it (evidenced by Application document), and then they miss out something that seems so easy to do? It seems to spoil the experience somewhat that I must have a thermometer in the room and adjust my desired target temperature accordingly!
Last week I bought a temperature probe from FastTech for I think $3 that measures -50 > 300°C with accuracy of +/- 1.5°C. If I am paying $3 for that in a box with other functions as well, surely the chip to do it costs very little indeed. Why can't they put one in the mod? That is a big downside.
Maybe it is a technical limitation of the very limited space in a tube? Yet another reason to hate tubes!!
But I am glad you are really enjoying it, and I can understand why. It looks like a true power user's mod and I am extremely jealous
I would love to be able to compare the Infinite chip against the Dicodes, using the Dicodes as a 'known good' reference point.
Haha, tell me about it! But the Infinite mods cost between $47 (VS clone) and $58 (Flask clone.) This is the price of a cheap meal for two (no wine), or a couple of home delivery pizzas. Or three tickets to a new movie at a cinema. Or two tickets to a (cheap) play/show. Or..
It's cheap, damn it
16 mods in 2015? In five months? That is good going
It's a hard life being on the cutting edge of vaping and TC!
Is the one of the mods you are going to get a Dicodes? I really would like to see one of those in action, but I really don't think I can yet. Both the huge cost, and the tube mod form factor.. but I really would love to try one to compare against the Infinite..
Yes, they are damn cheap and that`s the reason why I have to buy 2 or three off them. I still don`t have a Zero or Shark. But FT and the german customs are not friends at the moment - hope Doris will offer them.
Today I sold 2 Cloupor Minis, but that`s what I could sell. Prohibition is coming to Europe - don`t know when the doors will be locked, and so I have to grab what I can get. That`s crazy, prices drop and new developments in 3 - 2 - 1 month. What`s up in the UK? No regulations?
Tube mods are so long - I don`t like that, but the PP2 is so short for a regulated mod. If they would design a nice box mod with theirs chip, a larger display and two bottons, I would buy one for sure. But the tube.... ?
UK regulation will likely be the general European regulation that is being mooted - nicotine tax, devices have to be 'leak proof' and all that nonsense.
What's wrong with FT and German customs? They are stopping all packages? Maybe they figured out that "Gift - $20" was a little bit incorrect. Or in fact, a huge lie I really hope that doesn't happen with UK customs.
Yeah I thought the same about the Dicodes chip. If they made a box mod I would have to buy it, cost be damned. But they have always made tubes and I guess they think they're good. Really sucks. I guess I will contact them to ask, can't hurt to tell them there are people out there wanting a different form factor.
What's wrong with FT and German customs? They are stopping all packages? Maybe they figured out that "Gift - $20" was a little bit incorrect. Or in fact, a huge lie
I really hope that doesn't happen with UK customs.Yeah I thought the same about the Dicodes chip. If they made a box mod I would have to buy it, cost be damned. But they have always made tubes and I guess they think they're good. Really sucks. I guess I will contact them to ask, can't hurt to tell them there are people out there wanting a different form factor.
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