Innokin announces temp control

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LooseWiring

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Here is a quote from Innokin on the Reddit thread.

"Unit in the picture may be made as a numbered limited edition. The community has really loved the CoolFire 4 so far so we are definitely taking notes. We will have a range of battery sizes. The tech can be used in different devices."

I'm hoping that by "different devices" they mean that it will work with any tank.
 
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TheotherSteveS

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Here is a quote from Innokin on the Reddit thread.

"Unit in the picture may be made as a numbered limited edition. The community has really loved the CoolFire 4 so far so we are definitely taking notes. We will have a range of battery sizes. The tech can be used in different devices."

I'm hoping that by "different devices" they mean that it will work with any tank.


I think that means their chip can be used in any mod form factor.....
 

TheotherSteveS

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Quick video of it in use. Doesn't provide much (or any) info on how it works, but at least it lets you see the overall form factor.



I bet the coil heads are modified (and presumably expensive). That would seem to be the best bet..This is really interesting..
 
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peraspera

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Here is a quote from Innokin on the Reddit thread.

"Unit in the picture may be made as a numbered limited edition. The community has really loved the CoolFire 4 so far so we are definitely taking notes. We will have a range of battery sizes. The tech can be used in different devices."

I'm hoping that by "different devices" they mean that it will work with any tank.

In response to a comment in the Reddit thread about the chip Innokin_Paul posted - It is exact and accurate. Innokin is planning on speaking with more mod makers and manufacturers about this new Temperature Control system.

That sounds like Innokin is exploring licensing their chip tech to go into other companies' mods.
 

TheBloke

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I think it has to be a sensor in the topper, proprietary tanks etc. I have wondered for a while why a proper temp sensor couldn't be put up there (frankly I think the whole 510 connection is way past its prime and a better connection that also passes secondary power/signal lines to the atty could have loads of uses. For one thing, the atty IDing itself to the mod so putting on atty X can load up a default memory of power/temp for that atty.)

That quite possibly also means only using their own coils - unless they implement a temp sensor that can point at a specific spot where you put your coil? IR maybe? Sounds rather inaccurate but maybe possible in an enclosed space/controlled environment? But it would surely require limitations on coil position/design/wicking?

I just googled Thermopile - that's the same kind of sensor used in standard IR thermometers/guns, right? I have a cheap one and have found it impossible to fix on a coil and read consistently or remotely accurately. Busardo gets better result with his very expensive FLIR, but that's, well, very expensive. However both of those are external and in uncontrolled environments compared to putting a sensor in a fixed position right next to the coil.

Anyway I agree that if they say they're doing it, they must have something - I think we're a bit further along than the SMOK-and-mirrors (© @TheotherSteveS) debacle. I don't think a reputable manufacturer would try that again, especially as standard TC devices are selling great and just adding Titanium support is considered exciting enough. It would be shooting themselves in the foot to claim something further which they couldn't actually do.
 

TheBloke

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Re resistance sensing with Kanthal, I'd love to be wrong but I cannot see how it can be done. This is the relative resistance gains stated on Kanthal A1 datasheet:

  • 100°C / 212°F = 1.00
  • 200°C / 392°F = 1.00
  • 300°C / 572°F = 1.00
  • 400°C / 752°F = 1.00
  • 500°C / 932°F = 1.01
  • 600°C / 1112°F = 1.02
  • 700°C / 1292°F = 1.02
  • 800°C / 1472°F = 1.03

So a 1.0Ω coil increases by 0.01 by 932°F. A 0.50Ω coil would increase by 0.005 at the same temp. We can see it increases faster above 932, which might also imply it increases slower below that - ie resistance increase is a curve with greater rate of increase the higher you go. So rather than it being 0.01 linearly over 212-932°F it might be even slower from 212-572°F, the range we care about.

So we're talking about a difference of, say, 300° to 450° on a 0.50Ω coil being a resistance change of perhaps 0.00125, meaning each 30°F would be 0.00025Ω. The Yihi and Dicodes mods are accurate to 0.001 (one thousandths), and this mod would have to be ten times as accurate. One part in 10,000.

And the atty resistance itself can easily be 0.01 - 0.03, which on this granularity would be at least the entire vaping temperature range, and possibly far more.

I'm quite confident saying already that it can't be done in an affordable mod using resistance. But I would love to be wrong of course :)
 
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Mooch

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    There are very easy ways to quite accurately read voltages/resistances/currents to within one part in almost a 4,100 part range of values. If the designers are verrrry good they can read a value to one part over a 65,000 part range.

    Assuming a 0.4-2.5 ohm coil resistance range (is that correct?) they could potentially read a 32 micro-ohm difference in the coil's resistance. But that requires calibration (hmmm...use their own coils?), verrry carefully designed electronics, an electrically quiet operating environment (which we do not have), and software averaging of several readings (takes a bit of time).

    Not impossible, but tough to do.
     

    AndriaD

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    I know nothing technical about electronics, but I'm following the discussion with great interest (if high ignorance!), because I've said more than once that I won't be interested in temp control until it can be done with kanthal, and preferably with 1 ohm and higher builds.

    I'm a fan of Innokin, with 3 vv3s, and just about to acquire one of their new Coolfire IVs, so I'm quite interested in pretty much anything they do -- but that sub tank of theirs, no way, with that humongous driptip. And probably airy as all get out too, which I would hate. If I'm gonna do the temp control thing, it has to be with a kayfun, or an RDA with a similar vape -- such as a Magma.

    Andria
     

    TheBloke

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    There are very easy ways to quite accurately read voltages/resistances/currents to within one part in almost a 4,100 part range of values. If the designers are verrrry good they can read a value to one part over a 65,000 part range.

    Assuming a 0.4-2.5 ohm coil resistance range (is that correct?) they could potentially read a 32 micro-ohm difference in the coil's resistance. But that requires calibration (hmmm...use their own coils?), verrry carefully designed electronics, an electrically quiet operating environment (which we do not have), and software averaging of several readings (takes a bit of time).

    Not impossible, but tough to do.

    Oh sure, I didn't mean couldn't be done at all. I'm sure there are professional/industrial devices out there that do just that. I meant in an affordable mod :) Edited my post to clarify that.
     

    TheBloke

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    I mean why would they label the tank as 'iSub TC'. There is nothing about a tank that would make it special for TC unless it was deviously modified in some way ie with an additional sensor or something...

    Yeah I'm now certain it's a mod+tank technology. I just saw this post from Reddit, actually quite old, 22 days - it came before the mod announcement so no-one at the time really got what it was about:

    "Introducing the iSub-TC. The first tank which uses Innokin Control Technology for exact, controlled temperatures"

    Couldn't be clearer I'd say - the tank has to have the technology, not only the mod.

    Comparing the original iSub to the iSub TC:



    There's an extra ring in the middle of the base which must be where the sensor has been added.

    The original iSub was actually perfect for (traditional) TC - or would have been had they released any TC coils for it - because of its direct mod-to-coil connection: the 510 connection is the base of the coil itself, rather than the coil screwing into a base that then has a separate 510 pin. The bottom AFC ring screwed around the base of the coil. This new design seems to indicate that that's changed - it looks more like a traditional tank with coil-to-base-to-mod connection. Which it would have to be for if the sensor is in the tank itself as the new connection is going to need some additional power/signal lines to the mod.

    Also look closely at the base of the chimney of the new tank. In pretty much any other clearo, that would be the top of the coil screwing into the chimney. On the new iSub TC that doesn't look like a coil to me, it looks like some kind of coil housing.

    So no the first tank is not going to be rebuildable, unless one rebuilds the coils (if that's even possible.)

    Surely they'll bring out a rebuildable tank? That is if they've managed to make the sensor good enough to monitor an arbitrary "coil area" and not only a fixed position, known-size coil with only internal wicking.

    And that is if the sensor is even in the tank, and not (some part of it) in the coil head - which they then sell for $6 or $10 each or whatever, instead of $2. Perhaps that thing I thought looked like a coil housing is in fact the top of the coil, and it's a way bigger coil than usual. Possibly disputed a little by that extra ring - had the coil had all the goodies in it, they could have gone for the one-piece AFC like the original. But it could still be partly in the tank, partly in the coil. I don't know how small these Thermopiles can get?

    And final if, perhaps the biggest if: whether they're willing to even try that and forego some of the revenue from people buying coil heads. I suppose that will depend in large part on how many people decide to sit this one out if they can't have it as an RTA. There's enough people out there buying coil heads that they might not even see it as a big priority.

    I'm also really interested in the nature of this mod-to-sensor connection. If they were decent they would come up with some kind of standard - a system for sending power/signal to/from an atty for use in sensors of multiple types and for other future advances (automatic atty ID? Mod controlled AFC/juice flow? Mod-controlled flavour switching in multi-chamber tanks? You name it.) And therefore to allow many manufacturers to create compatible devices with a common standard. They might even be able to license it.

    I was going to say I'd be incredibly surprised if they did that, but then I noticed that the Reddit post I linked referred to this as the first tank using "Innokin Control Technology". Not temp control, just control. That sounds like a generic standard to me! Or it's just a missing word and means nothing :)

    Anyway, all very interesting indeed.
     
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    Mooch

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    Very interesting!
    Though the first thing that comes to mind is how can you keep the mod-to-sensor connections clean? And if any leaked/spilled liquid is conductive that worsens the problem. Not for big short circuits, but even a few microamps of leakage across connections could competely disrupt the sensor signal.

    Hmm...perhaps they could have a second Kanthal coil (embedded) that is thermally coupled to the actual vaping coil? Then they could easily measure temperature by monitoring the Kanthal coil's resistance. I don't have a good idea how to thermally couple the two without impacting the performance of the primary vaping coil but with proprietary, fixed-coil tanks it's possible though IMO.
     
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    TheotherSteveS

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    Yeah I'm now certain it's a mod+tank technology. I just saw this post from Reddit, actually quite old, 22 days - it came before the mod announcement so no-one at the time really got what it was about:

    "Introducing the iSub-TC. The first tank which uses Innokin Control Technology for exact, controlled temperatures"

    Couldn't be clearer I'd say - the tank has to have the technology, not only the mod.

    Comparing the original iSub to the iSub TC:



    There's an extra ring in the middle of the base which must be where the sensor has been added.

    The original iSub was actually perfect for (traditional) TC - or would have been had they released any TC coils for it - because of its direct mod-to-coil connection: the 510 connection is the base of the coil itself, rather than the coil screwing into a base that then has a separate 510 pin. The bottom AFC ring screwed around the base of the coil. This new design seems to indicate that that's changed - it looks more like a traditional tank with coil-to-base-to-mod connection. Which it would have to be for if the sensor is in the tank itself as the new connection is going to need some additional power/signal lines to the mod.

    Also look closely at the base of the chimney of the new tank. In pretty much any other clearo, that would be the top of the coil screwing into the chimney. On the new iSub TC that doesn't look like a coil to me, it looks like some kind of coil housing.

    So no the first tank is not going to be rebuildable, unless one rebuilds the coils (if that's even possible.)

    Surely they'll bring out a rebuildable tank? That is if they've managed to make the sensor good enough to monitor an arbitrary "coil area" and not only a fixed position, known-size coil with only internal wicking.

    And that is if the sensor is even in the tank, and not (some part of it) in the coil head - which they then sell for $6 or $10 each or whatever, instead of $2. Perhaps that thing I thought looked like a coil housing is in fact the top of the coil, and it's a way bigger coil than usual. Possibly disputed a little by that extra ring - had the coil had all the goodies in it, they could have gone for the one-piece AFC like the original. But it could still be partly in the tank, partly in the coil. I don't know how small these Thermopiles can get?

    And final if, perhaps the biggest if: whether they're willing to even try that and forego some of the revenue from people buying coil heads. I suppose that will depend in large part on how many people decide to sit this one out if they can't have it as an RTA. There's enough people out there buying coil heads that they might not even see it as a big priority.

    I'm also really interested in the nature of this mod-to-sensor connection. If they were decent they would come up with some kind of standard - a system for sending power/signal to/from an atty for use in sensors of multiple types and for other future advances (automatic atty ID? Mod controlled AFC/juice flow? Mod-controlled flavour switching in multi-chamber tanks? You name it.) And therefore to allow many manufacturers to create compatible devices with a common standard. They might even be able to license it.

    I was going to say I'd be incredibly surprised if they did that, but then I noticed that the Reddit post I linked referred to this as the first tank using "Innokin Control Technology". Not temp control, just control. That sounds like a generic standard to me! Or it's just a missing word and means nothing :)

    Anyway, all very interesting indeed.


    I love being right!! lol!
     
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