Samples of my 100% PGA cold extractions have been steeping for a month. Not sure if they are as good as a hot maceration as suggested, but the flavour is certainly a different twist on a standard PG maceration, or PG/PGA maceration. The extract has a lot more aroma, and a "bright" flavour (lots of flavour too). Not sure if its my cup of tea yet, its too early to know, but it sure is a good twist and a powerful tool to know about in natural tobacco extraction. In a way it is more like a concentrated flavour than a typical NET extract. It also seems to be a very clean extract.Thanks again for sharing STR8. I'll do another update in a month or two. On an unrelated note, that 6 month old long-term cold maceration that I am sitting on still has not been filtered, that's why I haven't reported back yet. Its now 9 months old and with a PG/PGA solvent ratio of 90/10, I think it should be well and truly ready for filtering.
Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol
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Extracted a batch of Sutliff VooDoo Queen last week using this method but increased the processing time to 14 hours. Upped the extraction temperature to 170F + and encountered boiling (simmering), a time or two, had to monitor it often. Results are delicious! I'm still impressed by the amount of oils, waxes and resins that precipitates out during the freezing cycle.
I've just about written off heated ethanol extractions...although when freshly made, the heated ethanol extractions make an excellent juice, I have found that the flavor from the heated PGA extracts dissapates very quickly.within 10 days to 2 weeks the flavor is very muted.....have others noticed this.
I haven't with the blends I've extracted so far. A couple of years ago I thought the same about heat assisted PG extractions but discovered that it was my sense of taste rather than the juice itself that was at fault. Since then I started rotating several distinctly different flavors throughout the day and it helps tremendously. One that I still have trouble with has a distinct cigar note that I lose completely after a couple of mls and must wait -several days- before I can taste again. Same with vanilla tobacco, I lose the vanilla before vaping a single tankful and must wait two or three days before I can taste it again. Vanilla tobacco is one of my all time favorites so this is very problematic...
EDIT: Almost forgot to mention that after mixing an extract with your nic and preferred PG/VG ratio let the juice age for a couple of months in cool dark storage. That's when NET achieves it true flavor, the longer it ages the better it gets. Don't write off a tobacco, or extract until it has been mixed and properly aged. Some of my favorite tobacco blends produce an extract that is "less than stellar" when fresh but when aged for three months turn into liquid gold.
EDIT: Almost forgot to mention that after mixing an extract with your nic and preferred PG/VG ratio let the juice age for a couple of months in cool dark storage. That's when NET achieves it true flavor, the longer it ages the better it gets. Don't write off a tobacco, or extract until it has been mixed and properly aged. Some of my favorite tobacco blends produce an extract that is "less than stellar" when fresh but when aged for three months turn into liquid gold.
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If I remember correctly you posted about this long ago in one of the threads (don't remember which one), and it intrigued me, so I started three long term cold extractions last March. Let me know how yours turns out, I'm curious! I don't know how long I will process mine, but figure at least six months if not longer. I don't recall processing an extraction beyond the three month mark so this is new territory for me.
I think there may be some truth to that I seem to lose cigar flavors very quickly very quickly and have to put them down and come back to them....they taste like nothing zilch...I remember I got a couple of NET one time from clay packard and there was this one...that after two or three drags on it my sinus would get bothered and I couldn't taste the juice.then others were just fine.
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Many of my NETS are over a year old, they seem to get better with age. I find with cigars its nice to just drip a little bit occasionally just to taste it and be reminded of the flavor, I never stay with it long. One unusual find recently was a really cheap cigar, like a rubbish dirt cheap cigar, I nearly threw the extract out several times over the past year or so, but now its like a strong virginia cigarette with cigar overtones, almost Camelish, and I quite like it.
My country is sunny,
We have an average of 285 days / year of solar irradiation.
Solar heaters that take advantage of the greenhouse effect created artificially to raise the temperature of the water arriving at temperatures between 55 ° C and 70 ° C.
70 ° C = 158.0000ºF
So I'll dive tobacco PGA, put in a jam jar, preach a black adhesive film for better absorption of heat, and put a glass jar dento another to create the greenhouse effect.
After I am thinking of freezing the mixture, even with tobacco to see if still within the waxes and resins are retained in the tobacco.
I'm using a low-quality tobacco, because I'm just testing the best process, I have another estração here pocesso other, but the same tobacco to compare.
I do now and I will take pictures for you to see!
Google Translator!
View media item 428597
Smoke strong.
10g of tobacco.
Generous 150ml of grain alcohol.
A glass inside the other.
Although the sun hiding behind the clouds, When I redbourn The Set at sunset, it was still warm.
Taking a dose to see the color and smell.
View media item 428606
The infusion was for the freezer which had been 24 before being filtered in a coffee filter.
We have an average of 285 days / year of solar irradiation.
Solar heaters that take advantage of the greenhouse effect created artificially to raise the temperature of the water arriving at temperatures between 55 ° C and 70 ° C.
70 ° C = 158.0000ºF
So I'll dive tobacco PGA, put in a jam jar, preach a black adhesive film for better absorption of heat, and put a glass jar dento another to create the greenhouse effect.
After I am thinking of freezing the mixture, even with tobacco to see if still within the waxes and resins are retained in the tobacco.
I'm using a low-quality tobacco, because I'm just testing the best process, I have another estração here pocesso other, but the same tobacco to compare.
I do now and I will take pictures for you to see!
Google Translator!
View media item 428597
Smoke strong.
Although the sun hiding behind the clouds, When I redbourn The Set at sunset, it was still warm.
View media item 428606
The infusion was for the freezer which had been 24 before being filtered in a coffee filter.
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Many were hot, all had a PGA percentage between 10% and 50% in the solvent. I can't see the flavor going anywhere once its in the solvent though. The first few weeks are usually unspectacular flavor-wise IMO. There are many variables though, and only experimenting will get you the flavors you want.
I had a problem with the last extraction; using the extraction at 10% tends to downgrade the quality of the finished liquid, and hence the vape. What to do?
Scratched my *head* a bit, then remembered an old cooks process ...
I had 28ml of tobacco flavoured ethanol left, so I added 25ml of the very best quality PG. These were mixed in a white, china dessert bowl, and then that bowl was placed on top of a pot of boiling water which was being heated on a hot plate. After 10 mins or so of boiling, the mixture had evaporated off all the ethanol, leaving just tobacco flavoured PG.
So, this works really well
Flavour transferred over okay with small losses due to leaving it on the pot too long (I believe that's what's caused it ... I could smell the tobacco in the kitchen while reducing). But having mixed it 2 days ago @13% 50PG50VG and 3mg/ml and giving it a burl tonight, it tastes like a tobacco flavoured juice should
Scratched my *head* a bit, then remembered an old cooks process ...
I had 28ml of tobacco flavoured ethanol left, so I added 25ml of the very best quality PG. These were mixed in a white, china dessert bowl, and then that bowl was placed on top of a pot of boiling water which was being heated on a hot plate. After 10 mins or so of boiling, the mixture had evaporated off all the ethanol, leaving just tobacco flavoured PG.
So, this works really well
Where I live the next two months will be near triple digit temperatures so I think I will try a long term, room temperature (Florida room), cigar extraction using PGA (ethanol), as the solvent. In the past I limited room temperature ethanol extractions to no more than 110 hours due to the amount of wax, oils and gunk (lipids), that would be leeched from the tobacco. Now that I'm able to precipitate these undesirables out of the extract, I want to extend the soak time and see how much flavor I can coax out of the most difficult tobacco to extract....cigars. I also plan to conduct a heated ethanol extraction using the same cigars for flavor comparison although I will modify my original procedure by changing the process temperature and duration. Once finished and after two freeze "filtering" cycles, I'll vacuum filter the extracts at 0.7 microns and reduce (condense), each by 60 - 70% via vacuum distillation. I'm shooting for extract that would be used at 5 - 7%. Once mixed with PG/VG I'll age the juice for 6 weeks before allowing the ethanol to evaporate from the mix, I believe this is key to proper diffusion/transference of the flavor. I'm currently able to go through 9 - 12ml before re-wicking, a -huge- improvement in performance from just a year ago when a single tank was the limit.
Interesting, is that from previous experience? Hmmm ... could I wait 6 weeks though
I found (quite by accident), that when transferring flavor from an ethanol base to a PG or VG base, allowing the blended solvents to age before removing the ethanol certainly seemed to improve the intensity of the end flavor. For many being able to wait that long is another matter, but I have so many well aged extracts that it isn't an issue for me anymore.
I did the extraction following str8vision2's method. I used a "Maduro 5" Cohiba cigar. I have 7 of those cigars but they have been sitting for about 3 or 4 years in their wooden box and inside a drawer.
I used a coffee filter after freezing the ethanol and got a good amount of slimmy stuff on it.
First I tried using just the ehtanol concentrate at 10% but no flavor at all, so I decided to transfer it to PG and make it more concentrated.
I added 20ml of PG to the ethanol and heated to evaporate it. I got flavor and I liked it, but it is very muted, I thought I would get an in your face flavor but it is not as strong as I thought.
Also, the final PG concentrate still has a lot of wax/oil on it and it separates very fast from the mix (dark chunks)so I have to keep shaking my dropper bottle to mix it again. I thing it maybe has to do with not using a better filter (1 micron) as str8vision suggests. Also when mixed with nicotine and 20% of concentrated flavor it stills separates from the PG/VG and I can see an oily film on the walls of the bottle.
I read that str8vision said that cigars are more difficult to extract but I don't know if the cigars being old are also a factor.
This is my first attempt, so next time I would try to get a better filter and also use a RYO or pipe tobbaco to see If I can get a more strong flavor and a cleaner/clearer concentrate.
I used a coffee filter after freezing the ethanol and got a good amount of slimmy stuff on it.
First I tried using just the ehtanol concentrate at 10% but no flavor at all, so I decided to transfer it to PG and make it more concentrated.
I added 20ml of PG to the ethanol and heated to evaporate it. I got flavor and I liked it, but it is very muted, I thought I would get an in your face flavor but it is not as strong as I thought.
Also, the final PG concentrate still has a lot of wax/oil on it and it separates very fast from the mix (dark chunks)so I have to keep shaking my dropper bottle to mix it again. I thing it maybe has to do with not using a better filter (1 micron) as str8vision suggests. Also when mixed with nicotine and 20% of concentrated flavor it stills separates from the PG/VG and I can see an oily film on the walls of the bottle.
I read that str8vision said that cigars are more difficult to extract but I don't know if the cigars being old are also a factor.
This is my first attempt, so next time I would try to get a better filter and also use a RYO or pipe tobbaco to see If I can get a more strong flavor and a cleaner/clearer concentrate.
Yep, cigars are more difficult to extract. So far my best cigar extractions came from using heated PG (120 hours @ 145F), but even those were a bit subtle for my taste, I only enjoy robust and intense flavors. For cigars, my cold ethanol extraction attempts (110 hours @ room temperature), failed to equal the results obtained from heated PG extractions. There was more range in flavor notes but the intensity was just too subtle for my personal taste preference. Long term room temperature PG extraction attempts (60+ days @ ambient), also failed to equal the results obtained from heated PG extractions. I've also bought and sampled a dozen premium retail cigar NETs and found those to be weaker in flavor than what I've been able to produce.
I would really enjoy a good NET cigar flavor but have yet to buy or produce one that "truly" meets my expectations. My goal is to produce a NET cigar flavor that is as intense as actually burning (smoking), one. I've achieved this level of intensity with several pipe tobacco blends but not with cigars, not even close. Ironically, the best cigar vape I have produced/tasted came from extracting Cornell & Diehl's "Billy Budd", a pipe tobacco that has a generous portion of Maduro cigar leaf in the blend. It's robust and is still a favorite of mine.
I do intend to experiment using heated ethanol for cigar extractions but will likely modify the duration (length), of the extraction process to something like a 24 hours @ >150F and further tweak the process based on obtained results. I'll run several variations using different duration/temperatures before I render final judgment of the method's efficiency/effectiveness for cigar extractions. Unfortunately, I won't have the time necessary till this winter. I certainly hope it's able to coax the flavor intensity from cigars I seek but only time (and effort), will tell.
Worth noting is that all NET, especially cigar extractions, once mixed will not achieve their true flavor potential until they have aged for a couple of months allowing the extracted flavor to properly diffuse/develop. The difference in flavor is like night and day. My favorite NETs (Sutliff's "Voodoo Queen" and Hearth and Home's "Louisiana Red"), are anemic when freshly mixed and require three months aging before reaching their liquid gold potential. Others like Dunhill's "Nightcap" and The Smoker's "St. James" are great fresh but also benefit from the passage of time although not to the same degree/extent as the aforementioned blends.
I would really enjoy a good NET cigar flavor but have yet to buy or produce one that "truly" meets my expectations. My goal is to produce a NET cigar flavor that is as intense as actually burning (smoking), one. I've achieved this level of intensity with several pipe tobacco blends but not with cigars, not even close. Ironically, the best cigar vape I have produced/tasted came from extracting Cornell & Diehl's "Billy Budd", a pipe tobacco that has a generous portion of Maduro cigar leaf in the blend. It's robust and is still a favorite of mine.
I do intend to experiment using heated ethanol for cigar extractions but will likely modify the duration (length), of the extraction process to something like a 24 hours @ >150F and further tweak the process based on obtained results. I'll run several variations using different duration/temperatures before I render final judgment of the method's efficiency/effectiveness for cigar extractions. Unfortunately, I won't have the time necessary till this winter. I certainly hope it's able to coax the flavor intensity from cigars I seek but only time (and effort), will tell.
Worth noting is that all NET, especially cigar extractions, once mixed will not achieve their true flavor potential until they have aged for a couple of months allowing the extracted flavor to properly diffuse/develop. The difference in flavor is like night and day. My favorite NETs (Sutliff's "Voodoo Queen" and Hearth and Home's "Louisiana Red"), are anemic when freshly mixed and require three months aging before reaching their liquid gold potential. Others like Dunhill's "Nightcap" and The Smoker's "St. James" are great fresh but also benefit from the passage of time although not to the same degree/extent as the aforementioned blends.
Ok, thanks for the advice. I will let some of the mix age for a couple of months for the flavor to develop more, meanwhile I would take another part of the mix to experiment with filtration because it clogs atomizers very fast as it is, I would really like to get a cleaner juice but I'm also afraid to loose flavor in the filtration process.
The ethanol is gone from the mix, so freezing is not an option anymore as I understand that PG has a very low freezing point, so I'm going to do a syringe/cotton pass and also see if I can get some 1 micron filters to do another one to get rid of all the chunks of gunk and hope not to loose flavor.
The ethanol is gone from the mix, so freezing is not an option anymore as I understand that PG has a very low freezing point, so I'm going to do a syringe/cotton pass and also see if I can get some 1 micron filters to do another one to get rid of all the chunks of gunk and hope not to loose flavor.
I would still give the ice-cold freezer filtering a go, you'll need to leave your steep in the freezer for a few days before filtering. You are trying to precipitate the solids and oils, and I believe my cold macerated steep has benefited from this.
An old retiree, I've been extracting flavor from tobacco for several years. A NET fan, tobacco extraction became an enjoyable and rewarding hobby. To date I've performed hundreds of extractions on about two hundred different tobaccos/blends using numerous solvents and various extraction methods all in an effort to find/obtain the best flavors available that suit my personal taste preference. I've learned/discovered a few thing along the way but only recently did I discover one of the main reasons NET is so hard on wicks and coils (gunky).
It's widely known among NET fans that juice made from tobacco extract is extremely hard on wicks and coils, re-wicking and dry-burning after a single tank is common especially for those picky about flavor (myself included). What I've come to realize is that mechanical filtering, even at sub-micron levels, isn't the answer as filtering alone doesn't remove the cause of the problem. Many people have suspected the sugars contained in the tobacco and or casings/toppings were the culprit and while I agree, to a point, what I discovered was the waxes, oils, resin and other undesirables the extraction solvent leeches/pulls from the tobacco contributes to the problem -greatly-. For lack of a better word I call the waxes, oils, resin and other undesirable elements we extract "Lipids". Removing or reducing lipids is an important step and yields a much cleaner better performing, better tasting extract. I currently go through three to four tanks (9 - 12ml), before re-wicking an even then my coils look no worse than if using synthetic flavorings. I've only achieved this level of performance with extracts that used ethanol as the solvent and had the lipids removed or reduced via the freezing process. I currently filter at 1 micron but have played with sub-micron filtration although I'm wasn't overly impressed with the results.
PG, ethanol and VG will not freeze (become a solid), in home freezers but PG and VG will suffer a positive viscosity change (they become thicker), ethanol doesn't.
Hot ethanol is an aggressive solvent that extracts extra flavor but it also pulls considerably more lipids from tobacco than does PG or VG based extractions. If not removed these lipids can cause the extract to taste "off" and performance (wick/coil longevity), to be very poor. Exposing an ethanol based extract to freezing temperatures for a day or two causes the lipids to precipitate out while gravity/time causes them to coalesce/stratify in the bottom portion of the extract/container. Filtering them out is only possible while the extract is still freezing cold and fortunately ethanol is as easy to filter cold as it is at room temperatures. I even place the filter, funnel and catch container in the freezer prior to use so that the apparatus is at the same temperature as the extract before filtering takes place. I haven't tried to remove lipids from a PG based extract yet so don't know how effective the freeze/filtering process would be in doing so but considering the potential benefits I'd certainly attempt it. Since it might take some time for the cold (thicker), PG to filter through I'd leave it in the freezer till it was finished doing so.
EDIT: For the freeze filtering process I use filter felt or a coffee filter to separate/filter the gelled lipids. Filter felt is ideally suited for this purpose due to its fuzzy texture and thickness. Final filtering (In my case through 1 micron borosilicate glass filter paper), is performed after the extract has warmed to room temperature.
It's widely known among NET fans that juice made from tobacco extract is extremely hard on wicks and coils, re-wicking and dry-burning after a single tank is common especially for those picky about flavor (myself included). What I've come to realize is that mechanical filtering, even at sub-micron levels, isn't the answer as filtering alone doesn't remove the cause of the problem. Many people have suspected the sugars contained in the tobacco and or casings/toppings were the culprit and while I agree, to a point, what I discovered was the waxes, oils, resin and other undesirables the extraction solvent leeches/pulls from the tobacco contributes to the problem -greatly-. For lack of a better word I call the waxes, oils, resin and other undesirable elements we extract "Lipids". Removing or reducing lipids is an important step and yields a much cleaner better performing, better tasting extract. I currently go through three to four tanks (9 - 12ml), before re-wicking an even then my coils look no worse than if using synthetic flavorings. I've only achieved this level of performance with extracts that used ethanol as the solvent and had the lipids removed or reduced via the freezing process. I currently filter at 1 micron but have played with sub-micron filtration although I'm wasn't overly impressed with the results.
PG, ethanol and VG will not freeze (become a solid), in home freezers but PG and VG will suffer a positive viscosity change (they become thicker), ethanol doesn't.
Hot ethanol is an aggressive solvent that extracts extra flavor but it also pulls considerably more lipids from tobacco than does PG or VG based extractions. If not removed these lipids can cause the extract to taste "off" and performance (wick/coil longevity), to be very poor. Exposing an ethanol based extract to freezing temperatures for a day or two causes the lipids to precipitate out while gravity/time causes them to coalesce/stratify in the bottom portion of the extract/container. Filtering them out is only possible while the extract is still freezing cold and fortunately ethanol is as easy to filter cold as it is at room temperatures. I even place the filter, funnel and catch container in the freezer prior to use so that the apparatus is at the same temperature as the extract before filtering takes place. I haven't tried to remove lipids from a PG based extract yet so don't know how effective the freeze/filtering process would be in doing so but considering the potential benefits I'd certainly attempt it. Since it might take some time for the cold (thicker), PG to filter through I'd leave it in the freezer till it was finished doing so.
EDIT: For the freeze filtering process I use filter felt or a coffee filter to separate/filter the gelled lipids. Filter felt is ideally suited for this purpose due to its fuzzy texture and thickness. Final filtering (In my case through 1 micron borosilicate glass filter paper), is performed after the extract has warmed to room temperature.
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