Thanks. So the Cloud nine test results are in PPM and the 5 Pawns test results for 2014 are in ug/ml and ug/g And it seems that the results 5 Pawns are publishing for 2014 vary greatly. Apples and oranges. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. I suppose the FDA wll standardize the testing methodology.
Cloud9vaping pulls Five Pawns and other liquids from the shelf after testing.
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You call the lawyers because someone is smearing your name by generating unfounded fear around your product. What I find sad is that so many are willing to succumb to that fear and thus, give the ANTZ all the ammo they need.
Big money tactics? Please they are a registered tax paying ejuice company not Phillip Morris.
You said it perfectly. ANTZ only needs to look hear for plenty of ammo. 7 pages of posts and only a handful have ordered from Cloud 9 or Five Pawns.
Actually ug/g is the same as PPM. There are a million ug in a gram, so 1 ug/g is 1 PPM.
Microgram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thanks I that not thought of that. I wonder why the vast difference in the test results then. Ohh well time will tell.
^^^ So C9 has samples of 5P juice tested and when the results indicate high levels of Diacetyl and AP, they return their inventory of 5P juice (in early May). In the intervening time, 5P was only willing to discuss the results with C9 over the phone but not in writing so the matter festers. Now it's late June and after receiving requests, C9 publishes the test results to explain why they've removed the 5P juices from their offerings (it wasn't just 5P juices that were removed). What does 5P do? They delete all posts about the matter on their FB page then they trot out the lawyers with a cease & desist order (one UK vaping forum actually deleted an entire thread on the matter). Sorry, but that smacks of strong-arm tactics to me. Maybe 5P should have actually engaged with C9 before it got to this point but the matter won't go away just because 5P is trying to suppress it. They have themselves to blame if their name is being smeared IMHO...and that's before any discussion on whether their juices actually contain harmful ingredients (contrary to what they've repeatedly told us).
FWIW, I have 9 bottles of 5P juice that I was looking forward to vaping. Now I'll do more research on the potential 'bad' items to see if I consider it worth the risk to vape. But I doubt if I'll buy any more...the way 5P has handled this has left a bad taste in my mouth.
Just my 2 setangs worth...YMMV.
FWIW, I have 9 bottles of 5P juice that I was looking forward to vaping. Now I'll do more research on the potential 'bad' items to see if I consider it worth the risk to vape. But I doubt if I'll buy any more...the way 5P has handled this has left a bad taste in my mouth.
Just my 2 setangs worth...YMMV.
You are not talking about the FB I know where a company gets flamed within minutes by anyone who vapes or just wants to say anything. This is the western world where one company can not put out information about another company without being held responsible. A US company has a right to protect it's reputation and if lawyers are needed to do so it's perfectly legal. You seem to feel as if Five Pawns is a major corporation.
I won't order from Cloud9 again as they never listed the results of the juices they carry under their name. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Essackly. The problem is not that C9 pulled 5P. They have a right to do so. The problem is that they publicly smeared 5P on extremely flimsy evidence. Ask that popcorn company who had to shell out big bucks because that guy ate popcorn then contracted BO. There was no evidence that the popcorn was to blame and plenty of evidence that he had other problematic exposures but a jury doesn't need evidence in these kinds of cases -emotion and an anti-corporate argument is all that is needed.
Couple that with the fact that C9 has their own flavors to promote and it leads to conflict of interest problems. All around, the industry needs to come up with standardized testing by independent organizations and voluntarily submit and disclose. They need to stop mudslinging in each other becaus that only hurts the industry as a whole.
In all fairness they just listed the juices that came out positive there are quite a few from other brands that they didn't published as those where negative
They could have published theirs but...
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The issue here is the way that 5 pawns handled the issue...
The greatness off a man/company isn't measured on how many problems they have but how they make them right and that speaks a lot about 5 pawns IMO
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The greatness off a man/company isn't measured on how many problems they have but how they make them right and that speaks a lot about 5 pawns IMO
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I totally agree. All C9 had to do was just take FP off their web site and be done with it. I wonder how many hits C9 received by making that statement. Perhaps they thought a CA company wouldn't do anything, now they know different.
I applaud what they did (assuming that the tests where real and well done) it's a way of we vapers taking care of ourselves
Didn't we All see this Coming?
White advances a Bishop. So Black pulls back a Rook to protect its King side Castle.
With a C&D Notice being served, Cloud9 pulls the Test Results. Five Pawns does Damage Control by posting lab results showing their Numbers. And the Band Plays On about what is Safe and who should be Trusted.
So what do we Really Know?
Nothing. Because what a Lab like S & N will tell you is that doing an Analysis on 11 Bottles of Customer supplied e-Liquids and finding ND<5 Levels of Diacetyl doesn't mean that the Five Pawns line of e-Liquids are Diacetyl. Only that the 11 Bottles that were Tested were Diacetyl Free.
This type of Testing can make No Inference about what Five Pawns has Sold in the Past. What it will sell in the Future. Or what it is Currently Selling. The Same can be Said about the Results that Cloud9's Laboratory Found.
If a Person really wanted to have a Better Understanding of what is Going On, they would need to Test e-Liquids at Random which were Obtained via Retail sources. An Option that is Available to Any ECF Member.
I'm sure that the Lawyer team for Five Pawns with say that the Chain of Custody for the e-Liquids that Cloud9 tested can Not be shown to be Unbroken. And will call into Question the Validity and Repeatability of the Testing Methods that Cloud9's Lab used.
I predict that Cloud9 will Quietly refrain from saying anything more about all of this. Because this Isn't about Diacetyl anymore. It is about How Much Money are you Willing to spend in Legal Fees to be able to Say what You Believe to be True.
And How Much Money are you Willing to Risk if the other side's Lawyer can Discredit you.
I hope the whole thing ends in a court case where everyone has to provide evidence.
I also look forward to the inevitable influx of third party testing.
That is the correct amount for a DA/AP test. That is what was quoted following Dr.F's study and what Enthalpy, the lab he used, charges.
Which only tells you about the bottle that you have. From what has been said and their own test results, I have a feeling 5P has a problem with the consistency of their mixing or supply. But there is no way to tell.
Yes to the former, but I doubt the latter would stick.
It is also reminiscent of the lion chasing the antelope; the lion is only running for his dinner, but the antelope is running for his life. Cloud9 don't care, except morally, what happens now; they have no financial or PR exposure. Five-Pawns is fighting for their survival. Therefore Cloud9 will be forced to shut-up and walk away. Five-Pawns will spend as much as they need to to make this go away; Cloud9 cannot match that except with a massive moral outrage I doubt they have.
I know there's a large number of people on here that hate Five Pawns and right now they're all salivating over this. Sticking it to the man right? F*** big corporations (which 5 Pawns is not). What is with the whole stupid attitude of Vapers thinking they are revolutionaries? We inhale chemicals into our lungs, we're not fighting any kind of war.
Get over yourselves. They are trying to protect their company. It was irresonsible for this compnay to publish test results when there is no standard for testing. I hope 5 Pawns goes after them very aggresively and dismantles them. I used to vape 5 Pawns but don't anymore and not because of these incompetent test results.
Get over yourselves. They are trying to protect their company. It was irresonsible for this compnay to publish test results when there is no standard for testing. I hope 5 Pawns goes after them very aggresively and dismantles them. I used to vape 5 Pawns but don't anymore and not because of these incompetent test results.
Cloud 9 said they tested all their liquids – they will have paperwork to support this
They said they removed Five Pawns because of high levels – again they will have paperwork to support this.
They said the levels of AP were the highest in any published results - This is certainly true of all the results I’ve seen if Five Pawns have evidence of higher they can produce it.
They said they told Five Pawns in May and Five Pawns have not engaged with them – as Cloud 9 have required everything to be done in writing they will have evidence of this plus any response(s) from Five Pawns.
As far as I can see they haven’t said anything that isn’t true. They haven’t said don’t buy it – they’ve just explained why they’re not selling it. They clearly outline on their site their policy re e-juice, what they test for and the tolerances they apply. If Five Pawns dispute the lab results they have had ample opportunity to say something before now. I could understand if they were using the time to re-test in case a problem had arisen they were unaware of/ to find out from Cloud 9 how testing was done etc. – but they weren’t. They have produced 2014 test results and basically said they see no problem with using AP. As I’ve said before the only thing Five Pawns seem to be disputing is the levels – and as they apparently have no problem with the pretty high levels their own tests demonstrate I can’t see why they are bothered? You can't smear someone by saying they have higher levels of something that they admit they have high levels of (and see no problem with) can you?
They said they removed Five Pawns because of high levels – again they will have paperwork to support this.
They said the levels of AP were the highest in any published results - This is certainly true of all the results I’ve seen if Five Pawns have evidence of higher they can produce it.
They said they told Five Pawns in May and Five Pawns have not engaged with them – as Cloud 9 have required everything to be done in writing they will have evidence of this plus any response(s) from Five Pawns.
As far as I can see they haven’t said anything that isn’t true. They haven’t said don’t buy it – they’ve just explained why they’re not selling it. They clearly outline on their site their policy re e-juice, what they test for and the tolerances they apply. If Five Pawns dispute the lab results they have had ample opportunity to say something before now. I could understand if they were using the time to re-test in case a problem had arisen they were unaware of/ to find out from Cloud 9 how testing was done etc. – but they weren’t. They have produced 2014 test results and basically said they see no problem with using AP. As I’ve said before the only thing Five Pawns seem to be disputing is the levels – and as they apparently have no problem with the pretty high levels their own tests demonstrate I can’t see why they are bothered? You can't smear someone by saying they have higher levels of something that they admit they have high levels of (and see no problem with) can you?
I emailed cloud 9 yesterday as I did FP. Five Pawns replied and Cloud 9 didn't. It was cloud 9 who stated email us for test results. They put up numbers but no lab data or contact information.
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