Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[pennysmalls]

Do you really think they could get them certified for inhalation? Big liability issue if they do not get them certified which will cost megabucks and take years maybe.

Oh yeah, sorting everything out will take years but I'm the optimistic type and I say why not for inhalation? If vaping can be categorized as an entirely new product, neither tobacco nor medicinal, I can see our liquids being approved for inhalation. I have no idea if it would take mega bucks or not, but I can see a future where it's approve-able, meaning not likely to be approved for reasons other than safety ($$$$$) but approve-able all the same.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Oh yeah, sorting everything out will take years but I'm the optimistic type and I say why not for inhalation? If vaping can be categorized as an entirely new product, neither tobacco nor medicinal, I can see our liquids being approved for inhalation. I have no idea if it would take mega bucks or not, but I can see a future where it's approve-able, meaning not likely to be approved for reasons other than safety ($$$$$) but approve-able all the same.

yeah maybe 10 years or so down the road if we don't all become vaping outlaws by then.

 

[Mazinny]

Just talking out loud here....I think what Nicoticket is doing is where the industry is heading anyway. Doing so will address the safety issue with transparent companies like NT who test their juices and publicly display the results as well make adjustments to recipes to lower unfavorable levels of "fill in the blank". It also addresses issues for those living in states who may soon be unable to purchase premade liquids online, as well as liquids containing nicotine. If someone can't purchase liquid online and they want to DIY but want safer flavorings companies like Nicoticket will be there to fill that need, a need that I think has the potential to become overwhelming one day very soon. Imagine being able to mix your own Virus or Grandma's Cinnamon Danish and have it turn out just like the real thing? All done with ingredients/flavorings that are tested and the results publicly shared so everyone knows exactly what they're getting.

I think NT really has their eye on the ball and they're doing it all with the well being of vapers in mind. I believe we'll be seeing more and more vape companies doing likewise.

I think Nicoticket will be fine for the next couple of years, and i do give them credit for being the only vendor that i know of that divulged the fact there are diketones in their juice from early on. To this date i don't know of any other vendor besides Charlie Noble and Seduce Juice maybe ( i haven't checked their test results to see if some of their juices has diketones ), that have published results with diketones. The only other vendors that have published voluntarily ( NJOY AC, MOV, Nicvape etc... ) were the ones that were diketone free. There were some that turned out to be diketone free after VS published, but they hadn't published the results themselves. It's likely vendors like Johnson Creek and Halo are diketone free as well but we can't be sure.

However, whether we like it or not, the FDA will ban diketones imo ( personally i am in favor of disclosure, not banning ) and the vendors that have got a head start will likely come out stronger after regulations take effect.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

I wonder how the banning will work? Just in vaping juice i would suspect and not in the flavorings themselves? But maybe in the flavorings? Diketone and AP as well I would think.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I wonder how the banning will work? Just in vaping juice i would suspect and not in the flavorings themselves? But maybe in the flavorings? Diketone and AP as well I would think.

Banning? Dunno. Enforcing it will be similar to trying to catch a greased pig with latex gloves on while running on a slip-and-slide.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

They have black helicopters with quasi infrared cameras that can detect diketones in vapor from 3 miles away.

 

[caramel]

I wonder how the banning will work? Just in vaping juice i would suspect and not in the flavorings themselves? But maybe in the flavorings? Diketone and AP as well I would think.

Don't forget that tobacco cigarettes use them too. Would be fun to see FDA stating that diketones are ok in Marlboro but not in HappyVappy.

 

[Nermal]

Good point, caramel, though I wish they would also disclose the presence. Or maybe they have and nobody cares.

 

[Mazinny]

I wonder how the banning will work? Just in vaping juice i would suspect and not in the flavorings themselves? But maybe in the flavorings? Diketone and AP as well I would think.

I suspect they would require eliquid manufacturers provide proof of test results. I can't imagine they will ban it in food flavorings although i have read FEMA is considering greatly reducing their levels in food flavoring as well

 

[Mazinny]

diacetyl in cigarettes is a result of combustion, it is not an added ingredient.

 

[caramel]

Good point, caramel, though I wish they would also disclose the presence. Or maybe they have and nobody cares.

Interesting enough, FDA keeps just for themselves the ingredient list in cigarettes. "protecting trade secrets" blah blah.

 

[caramel]

diacetyl in cigarettes is a result of combustion, it is not an added ingredient.

It is an added ingredient. They list it as Butanedione which is another name for the same thing.

Ingredients and Additives in Cigarettes

 

[englishmick]

That is much more complicated of a thing than any eliquid "manufacturer" I know can truly successfully do. Actual flavor-chemistry is not just something you decide to do. Even sourcing most of the raw molecules is not easy, if at all really possible, let alone having the wherewithal to actually be able to work with it. Now, anyone can throw some vanilla beans in a jar with PG or alcohol -- wait; filter -- and call it an extract, but I wouldn't exactly call that making one's own flavorings as the term in the flavor industry takes it to mean.

Aren't there some vendors who do produce flavors that way, they call it natural or organic. Making a mango flavor by extraction from mangos rather than using single molecule components and building a mango flavor that way. Like NET but from sources other than tobacco. It's not as simple as soaking vanilla, there's a lot of high tech filtering and other processes, and awareness of the stuff you need to get rid of.

If I recall correctly Dr F thought it was a bad idea. His reasoning being that if you do it that way you really can't know what chemical compounds are in your final product, and there might be a lot of them. All you can do is test for predetermined levels of components you don't want to see, like diketones, as opposed to not adding them in the first place. To identify every compound in a natural extract would be a huge task, and even then I don't know if you could rely on next week's extract being identical to this week's.

But a lot of us accept this uncertainty when it comes to NET. I've used naturally extracted flavors, and given the current uncertainty about the contents of "artificial" flavors I can't get too excited about the risks.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Aren't there some vendors who do produce flavors that way, they call it natural or organic. Making a mango flavor by extraction from mangos rather than using single molecule components and building a mango flavor that way. Like NET but from sources other than tobacco. It's not as simple as soaking vanilla, there's a lot of high tech filtering and other processes, and awareness of the stuff you need to get rid of.

If I recall correctly Dr F thought it was a bad idea. His reasoning being that if you do it that way you really can't know what chemical compounds are in your final product, and there might be a lot of them. All you can do is test for predetermined levels of components you don't want to see, like diketones, as opposed to not adding them in the first place. To identify every compound in a natural extract would be a huge task, and even then I don't know if you could rely on next week's extract being identical to this week's.

But a lot of us accept this uncertainty when it comes to NET. I've used naturally extracted flavors, and given the current uncertainty about the contents of "artificial" flavors I can't get too excited about the risks.

Yes and no. Many do make soak-and-strains and when you see many of the "flavorings" they are like slurries of partially separated goo. Or they look like homogeneous sludge. LOL. There are a couple in our industry that compound some of their own flavorings like Decadent Vapour or even the powerhouse FlavourArt, but those are not any kind of real model for some eliquid mixer to try and follow. I mean, I guess ultimately a wealthy-enough vendor could hire some flavor-chemists if they could find 'em. I still think eliquid vendors just need to stay in their lane as best as possible and do what they should be able to do as best as they can.

 

[Racehorse]

Perhaps the answer to this is for the vape industry to begin making it's own flavorings because we really can't expect our current sources to do this for us. I believe Nicoticket is doing just that soon and will be carrying both single flavors and premixes.

Ahlusions has been making flavorings for a number of years I believe.

So are you saying Nicoticket is going to actually MAKE their own flavorings, from scratch (which I somehow doubt) in their own large flavoring manufacturing facility (a huge undertaking) OR that they will put together flavorings from the flavor manufacturers (like Linda does at TPA/TFA) so that customers can make their own ejuice?

these are 2 entirely different things, just want to get the straight information here.

I hope people are aware that TPA/TFA doesn't actually "make" their own flavorings. The outfits who make flavorings are pretty big, and it is an entirely separate laboratory/facility than just a simple ejuice making facility.

Please let me know what you are saying here.......

 

[Racehorse]

Yes and no. Many do make soak-and-strains and when you see many of the "flavorings" they are like slurries of partially separated goo. Or they look like homogeneous sludge. LOL. There are a couple in our industry that compound some of their own flavorings, like Decadent Vapour, but those are not any kind of real model for some eliquid mixer to try and follow. I mean, I guess ultimately a wealthy-enough vendor could hire some flavor-chemists if they could find 'em. I still think eliquid vendors just need to stay in their lane as best as possible and do what they should be able to do as best as they can.

Well yes, that is why I am asking Pennysmalls if Nicoticket is now going to build out a big flavoring manufacturing facility. That seems like it would take some doing.....

..even Decadent Vapour in the UK only does a very small amount of their own flavoring and I "think" most of those are coffee types?

And, not to be insulting to anyone, but the eliquid makers *seem* to have trouble just mixing ejuice with what they have, and being upfront about what is in it.....now we are going to expect them to build out huge flavoring manufacturing plants to make their "own" flavors.......when 3/4 of them won't even spend a $200 per sample to TEST THEIR OWN EJUICE? Please.......yup, they need to stay in their own lane for now, most definitely.

 

[Racehorse]

I think something that is Starting to get Lost in all this is that Cloud9 asked Five Pawns for Lab reports to support the Claim that Five Pawns e-Liquids were DA and AP Free. And Five Pawns would not provide the Lab Reports that they Had.

So Cloud9 did their own Lab Analysis.

Yes, that is why I brought it up in my post (no likes?)

I am interested to know what Cloud9 should have done when they had hundreds of customers wanting to order 5P and they were waiting on test results that 5P wasn't submitting, and getting inquiries from customers asking why the 5P ejuices weren't available to order (because like Vaporshark, Cloud9 decided that they only want to carry ejuices with tests, because they believe their customers have a right to know what they are intaking).

So what, Cloud9 is supposed to spend 100 hours in emails and on the phone, explaining this?

This is WHY the test results on every juice being sold is up on the Vaporshark site. Every vendor has to submit test results and every ejuice on that site has a test attached to it......for the consumer to look at. You click on the ejuice.....then choose your nic level and size....and right on that same page is a lab test result as well. (stroke of genius if you ask me!)

VS and C9 have every right to list those tests, and they have every right to publish them AFAIC. Because there is no other way to do it.

 

[AndriaD]

Oh yeah, sorting everything out will take years but I'm the optimistic type and I say why not for inhalation? If vaping can be categorized as an entirely new product, neither tobacco nor medicinal, I can see our liquids being approved for inhalation. I have no idea if it would take mega bucks or not, but I can see a future where it's approve-able, meaning not likely to be approved for reasons other than safety ($$$$$) but approve-able all the same.

I really don't see e-cigs being classified as "an entirely new thing" -- not only does our gov't lack the ability to "think outside the box" ... they ARE the box, so naturally they can't think of anything outside their scope. It's like asking fish to think of breathing air and walking on land -- they have neither lungs nor legs, so it would never occur to them even to try.

Andria

 

[caramel]

I really don't see e-cigs being classified as "an entirely new thing" -- not only does our gov't lack the ability to "think outside the box" ... they ARE the box, so naturally they can't think of anything outside their scope. It's like asking fish to think of breathing air and walking on land -- they have neither lungs nor legs, so it would never occur to them even to try.

Andria

Actually some fish have tried that:

 

[Racehorse]

That is much more complicated of a thing than any eliquid "manufacturer" I know can truly successfully do. Actual flavor-chemistry is not just something you decide to do. Even sourcing most of the raw molecules is not easy, if at all really possible, let alone having the wherewithal to actually be able to work with it. Now, anyone can throw some vanilla beans in a jar with PG or alcohol -- wait; filter -- and call it an extract, but I wouldn't exactly call that making one's own flavorings as the term in the flavor industry takes it to mean.

Which is why I am asking Pennysmalls for more details, as I am curious if NT is planning on building out a sophisticated, state-of-the-art FLAVORING manufacturing plant, with chemists and other experts in this field and such on staff.

Sounds like a pretty huge undertaking.

they want to DIY but want safer flavorings companies like Nicoticket will be there to fill that need

Let me be frank here. NT right now has pretty high AP levels in some of their ejuices.

You are suggesting that a company who has what many consider to be "unsafe" AP levels in their ejuice as a candidate to "fill the need" with safer flavorings for the vaping industry and it's cusotmers?

Personally, my feeling is that they need to get their own ejuice in line with appropriate AP levels, and the flavorings already exist to do that, before they can start in on providiing "safe flavorings" for the entire ejuice industry.

I understand that NT is reformulating some of their ejuices to lower AP levels, and want to see how that turns out first.

That said, even though Dr. Farsalinos has stated that AP and DA don't belong in ejuice, that is an opinion, and even though it's one I share, I am not for "banning" eliquids that contain it.
Our forum owner once said basically, that people need what they need to get off cigs. I figure if custards is the only thing that will keep them off cigs, then I say let 'em have what they need. I have no desire to dictate to others what to vape, I am and always was just looking for my own solution......DAP free eliquids for myself.

Let me also say that since this topic is about "dishonest" vendors, NT has been very forthcoming and transparent about what is in their ejuices. That is what we want so they are good going forward.